I am hoping that today's listening exercise was a humbling-yet-positive experience for many of you because we were able to explore one of the fundamentals of basic human communication: how to listen effectively. It is no small feat, as many of you saw today, but overall, I was pleased with what I saw in each class.
Now, I know that I said I would post different questions for each period, but I don't think that will really be necessary because much of what I heard today was similar in nature and content.
Therefore, the following question will apply to all sections.
First things first, what did you think of the piece? If any of you are interested, I have all of Green's books including the one referenced in the article today, The Art of Seduction.
After reading the books, I sort of stumbled upon his blog (which is where The Dark Side the originated) called Power, Seduction and War.
What you read today was an older post that I read a couple years back and STILL has me musing over the contents all this time later.
I posit that the theme of this post is that we are drawn to what we perceive is the dark side of human nature, and presumably, the dark side of ourselves. He cites certain examples of classic "villains" both real and fictional and in those we are not talking about ritualistic serial killers or people who harm animals or children per se. From virtually every standpoint, that type of "dark side" is reviled, as of course it should be.
However, there exists, in all of us, an unmistakable desire to do "the wrong" thing (his assertion), and the more we call those people who act on that desire out on it, the stronger the pull is either to the person or to the act. In his exact words: "The strength of their denunciation equals the strength of their attraction."
He goes on to say, in what may be the most controversial opinion in the entire piece, that we are drawn to certain villainous characters such as the pimp, the seducer, the hustler etc because they are more GENUINE than we are. They recognize their dark side and rather than try to hide it or deny it completely, they act on it.
After reading it and taken what I've said here into consideration, do you agree with Greene or disagree? Also to be considered of course is: Do you have a dark side?
Naturally, you must support what you are saying with thoughtful and relevant examples.(450 words/65pts)
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As may be expected, I did not enjoy the piece at all. As opposed to being an initiator of intellectual inquisition, I felt Greene’s “The Dark Side” was forced. More specifically, instead of actually presenting a thoughtful topic, I felt as if Greene presented something that he wanted to be perceived as thoughtful, but actually is not. It’s like the difference between a scholar and an elementary student: one genuinely writes thought-provoking pieces, while the other tries to give off the illusion that his/her piece is thought-provoking. Everything just felt disingenuous, like tabloids in which writers make empty assumptions.
ReplyDeleteAccordingly then, it follows that I disagree with Greene to a great extent. First of all, as I have said in a previous blog, a person cannot be defined. A person cannot be confined to stereotypes and predicted outcomes. Thus, Greene’s assertion that an intimidating person is actually demure and a pleasant person is actually sabotaging, for me, is unsubstantiated.
Secondly, I vehemently do not believe that everyone has a dark side. The idea is preposterous. In extreme situations, as with serial killers that are social workers by day and mass rapists by night, yes, that is definitely a dark side. But not everyone has a hidden side. For example, if someone loves school, and you only see that person in school, then to you, that person is a happy person. But just because, if you happen to see that person at home, he/she is bitter and angry does not mean this is his/her ‘dark side.’ It is simply another aspect of their personality. A person’s personality isn’t just “cheerful” and “aggressive.” Individuals personalities range, and most people only experience another person’s personality from one or two angles., because we only see people in one or two situations. Then it goes without saying that just because I am ignorant of, say, Kelsey’s full personality, doesn’t mean that every part of her I don’t know is a dark side.
To build off of that, not everyone hides parts of their personalities. I believe that most of the time, society doesn’t give each individual an opportunity to show their full selves. Humans are, by nature, selfish and do not often care to see another’s personality from all angles. For example, I love Dragon Ball Z. I have 42 action figures, more than 50 Dragon Ball Z DVDs, and nearly 25 Dragon Ball Z manga. This isn’t a nerd side I’m afraid to show. Rather, no one in school has genuinely had enough vested interest in me to find out about this other aspect of my personality. People usually don’t care enough about one another until things become romantic. A boyfriend will know more about his girlfriend than her friends do. Her friends will think of this information as a dark side, but the boyfriend will think of it as a different side of his girlfriend’s same personality that she just isn’t given the opportunity to show.
Lastly, I DISAGREE WITH ALL MY HEART that “The strength of their denunciation equals the strength of their attraction.” To me, no offense, this sounds like a complete and utter tarradidle meant to just give off the illusion of intellectual thought when actually it’s nothing but condensed stupidity. I have absolutely no respect for pimps or hustlers. Ask me on Thursday, and I’ll still hate them. Ask me in two years, and I’ll tell you the same thing. The fact pimps embrace their lust only furthers my repulsion of them since I believe that, if made aware of your shortcomings, you should try your best to fix them. I don’t think Martin Luther King Jr. had a secret attraction to racists. I will always be against pornography, and no, I do not have a “dark side” in which I morph into a porn addict. I thought Robert Greene’s point was decent until you threw this quote out, Bunje. I hate to sound this bitter, but I feel like I dropped a few IQ points.
The "screw the world" attitude, the rare one sided smirk, the laid back mellowness, and the overall bad boy status. These boys claim they are considered bad because they are REAL and speak it like it is. Thinking of someone like Hyde, from That 70's Show. These boys are the ones girls fall for, knowingly that they are bad boys. These boys are my kinda boys, and these boys are anything but bad to the bone. I befriended many guys or girls like that and after long extended times of friendships, they open up to me and most of them are not bad and actually more loving then most. The reason that they act that way is not because they are hiding it but probably because they think others don't deserve it. Don't get me wrong, pimps will always look like low lives to me, and hustlers aren't the best of people, but where I was raised there is always an exception or justification of a rare wrong doing. Many rappers, not sex money drug rappers, but rappers that rap about the hustle justify it because they weren't given an opportunity. PLEASE don't tell me that everyone can be what ever they can be or that the American Dream stuff because my personal experiences have shown me some people work hard and do the right thing and never get anything at all good in return. If you are one of those people, and then your mom gets cancer or your little brother, would you hustle and steal because doing the right things just got you no where. You can never judge or know unless you are in that position and honestly I think that 's what separates me from the majority from Oakcrest because we might be all in South Jersey but I bet barely anyone saw the back Maryland and inlet living or interacted with those people or simply judged them. Therefore Greene to say that people act the way they do because sometimes society puts them in that position makes sense, it might not justify our lost of being genuine but it is a reason and points out that those hardcore cool people we look up too is because we know they just are more genuine.. I always possessed that baddd attitude too, "I don't care if the the world disapproves, it I believe in something I will voice it." Usually I am different from the majority and I learned to be on that defense to be always ready for any type of attack since I'd most likely be outnumbered. This made me create a shell that would be made up of tests. These tests are for other people surrounding me to pass, you pass you see a side of me. Are they bad sides? No. Are they good sides? No. They are simply more of my attitude or personality. I will express my approval and or disapproval at all times, I will respect as I would be respected, and I would NEVER walk away leaving questions unanswered or having questions or thoughts left to share. Yet with every side and every person it will be shown differently.
ReplyDelete"Dark side" has a negative connotation... and I don't believe our other side is always negative. I have sides that are based on love or affection that I would live without showing simply because you have to work or prove to me that you deserve it. Keeping my "F U" guard up all the time is not because I want to be cool or mean but simply because I see people that are constantly expecting so much from others then getting nothing but a nice big fat fall on the face back to reality. That fall is a long, treacherous, slow and painful one, and I didn't enjoy it so if I don't want to experience it, wouldn't I act to prevent it?
ReplyDeleteI don't believe that people are the opposite of what they want to be, which is what I got from Greene, because I feel that these "bad people" want people to work for their love and it's a privilege and keeping them safe from harm. Simon said if someone is against homosexuals doesn't mean they are a homosexual which was basically said in Greene's piece. That's a lot of homosexuals... not that I care but lets me realistic Greene? If someone is against something most likely they simply just don't like it. Greene is shoving this outlook on us and does not my an exception. The quote "The strength of their denunciation equals the strength of their attraction" I comprehend it as every action as an equal reaction, most of the time. I think what Greene was trying to achieve was that if you truly don't like something is because it effects you in one way or another for you to even be bothered by it and make an effort to disagree. If he really meant that you hate it because you actually love it as equally then I simply think that's ridiculous. Hopefully he means attraction as a pull or effect not the positive "oohh I likeee"
I don't agree that we desire to do the wrong thing, I think that the pressure of the standard society makes us want too SOMETIMES because we are forced to do as the system requires. DO NOT PUSH THE RED BUTTON! and yet we never thought about the red button until someone puts the restrictions on it and we feel the need to not be told what to do. Same thing with parents, or even babies. You say STOP THAT a couple hundred times and they will constantly do it. It's human nature to have that freewill. I am not saying we do not have the dark side because no one is perfect. We all had that bad or mean thought or furiously disagreed on the inside and thought damn that other person. I don't care what race, religion, or location, I don't care if you are a Priest, Imam, Monk, or Rabbi, NO ONE IS PERFECT. Therefore yes we all possess that side because it's human nature, and we don't hide it because we are ashamed from it but we hide it because society tells us too. So back to the bad boy persona, they don't let society tell them what to do so we kind of look up to them. That's what I believe and it's kind of who I am. I simply won't let society put restrictions unless I believe in them. I get called negative, but I think it's being realistic. Society might think it's the safest way or that it's to keep order but in reality they are just limiting out abilities. There will never be infinite World Peace... Someone is out to get you!!! THEY (who ever they may be) are trying to control and standardize us... I think Greene is trying to put that society does that yet he does not showcase it effectively and concentrates on irrelevant things that just judges or actually contradicts because he is standardizes the human race into these rules.
I don't have a dark side or as Jourdan put it today, any side that's put in the dark. I don't hide from the public who I am. I have strengths and weaknesses and you only know certain ones because in the end of the day control that outcome and towards who it is. How I act in Ac is no where near how I act in Oakcrest. How I act in Bunje's is not how I act in Algebra, or Gym, or even Lunch. Is it because I am fake? Nope. I simply have statuses, I don't want to say levels, but more of different doors towards my personality. I will not show you my side of craziness if I don't think you can handle it. I try to show everyone my insight or opinion because it keeps everyone open minded to different views and more tolerant. I admit I am self physically self conscious but that's an insecurity that I don't hide or effects my personality in a certain way. I have dark, not really appropriate TO SOCIETY thoughts, I'm not constantly sharing them simply because I don't want to get put away.... yet I will warn about it or show it to people that I feel are understanding.
ReplyDeleteOddly enough, I enjoyed the piece. I agreed with Greene one hundred percent. The things that he said did not surprise me because I had this belief before reading this piece. I felt that it was well explained and well backed up. In the end, I liked how the last part of the piece ended with someone trying to seduce their audience into thinking his book was bad but it caused more copies to be bought because it sparked interest.
ReplyDeleteI do believe that everyone has a dark side. The examples that Greene gave were fantastic. It was funny how I could relate each one to a person I knew and how right he actually was on their personalities. My best friend is a girl who does everything the right way. She would have to be the one who ate the right foods and joined the good causes. However, she has just recently had her first boyfriend. My perfect little angel of a best friend turned into a person whom she never thought she could. She described the feeling as “a rush” and said that as much as she liked doing everything the right way she felt a kind of “attraction” to being a little bad every now and again.
I also found connection between the other personalities that he described. The one who is always willing to help is trying to hide their own insecurities seemed to fit another friend of mine, a guy I have just recently gotten to know better. It would seem that he is confident on the outside as her wears his mask, like Greene mentioned, but he is honestly just an insecure guy who is afraid of getting hurt just like everyone else. He works out every day of the week because he wants to look good but he told me last night that he can “always look better.” I do not know if any of you guys know him but he could not possibly be any cuter, but I am willing to wait and find out if he can….
As for me, I do have a dark side. However, my definition of a “dark side” seems to be different than the one that Greene discusses. So I will stick to his definition. I have to be the good one. I am my parents last hope of “raising a child the right way…” It puts a lot of pressure on me but I do all the right things. However, I am the kind of person who will freak out about something little because it truly bothered me deep down. I often find myself annoyed with someone because they got to do something that I wanted to be able to do as well. But I yelled at them for doing it because it was bad. I honestly believe that we are attracted to that in which we are afraid to show.
I am an extremely insecure person. I second guess every decision that I make and I worry about every little thing. But most people would not know that about me. I wear a mask as much as the next person. A mask that shows I am confident, aggressive, and sarcastic as hell or a mask that shows me to b a quiet, innocent, little girl. It is all about my surroundings that show me which mask I shall wear. However, the point is I wear a mask too, to hide my flaws and insecurities. I want to be considered an angel, not a primate.
Kale- "As may be expected, I did not enjoy the piece at all. As opposed to being an initiator of intellectual inquisition, I felt Greene’s “The Dark Side” was forced. More specifically, instead of actually presenting a thoughtful topic, I felt as if Greene presented something that he wanted to be perceived as thoughtful, but actually is not. It’s like the difference between a scholar and an elementary student: one genuinely writes thought-provoking pieces, while the other tries to give off the illusion that his/her piece is thought-provoking. Everything just felt disingenuous, like tabloids in which writers make empty assumptions. "
ReplyDeleteYour whole first paragraph blew me away. Obviously, you would not have liked this piece. This much I know about you. However, the way that you pretty much blew this guy out of the water was so interesting to me. The way you compared him to an elementary student shocked me and the way you described his writing as "pushing" the subject shocked me as well. I like the way you presented your argument though.
Manar- "I will not show you my side of craziness if I don't think you can handle it."
ReplyDeleteI completely loved this sentence. It is exactly the way that I am as well. I will not reveal all of myself to one person if I do not think they can handle it. I also liked how you described your personality as a hall with a bunch of doors. Each door holding a different part for a specific time. I think this more describes me than anything I might have written in my own blog.
I loved the reading. I read books on philosophy pretty regularly, because they are fascinating to me. This was really original and thought-provoking. As soon as I got home, I looked up his blog and was able to find some sections from The Art of Seduction. (I’m feeling like a major nerd for admitting that, but I wouldn’t want me any other way.)
ReplyDeleteWomen tend to be in tune with their emotions, and act on them a lot, maybe a lot more than they should. This is a harsh generalization, but from my experience it is true more often than not. Out of all the stereotypical guys that girls are supposed to “fall for” and often do “fall for”, the “bad boy” stands out. Why would someone possible be attracted to him? His label alone should send you running away. The label says what most girls probably already know “You can’t change me, but I’ll probably hurt you”. Crushes are associated with passion. Why are people so willing to get passionate about things that are so bad for them? I have a little addiction to the show True Blood. All of the major romantic leads in the show are “supernatural” aka can easily kill humans and probably have before. One character in particular is known for being selfish, conniving, and just an overall bad guy. In the show women throw themselves at him, and most female fans of the show like him. Some are even obsessed with his character. There is another character who is always genuine, sweet, and loving, but there aren’t many True Blood fans who want to throw themselves at him. Look around the Oakcrest hallways or listen to your friends, and you’ll see that people love to fall for the worst possible person for them. People make similar choices when it comes to friendships. Sometimes it’s for the thrill. Other times people are impressed by those who intimidate them.
I don’t believe anyone is completely good, or completely evil. We are all morals, love, apathy, hate, passion, and a million other things swirled together. I don’t think it is as clear cut as “dark side” or “light side.” My good side is creative, determined, friendly, and loving. It sounds nice, but my good side I can be selfish when I’m being creative or determined. I can be unrealistic, when I concentrate on being loving. My bad side is apathetic, insecure, and judgmental. My apathy keeps me from over working myself, and reminds me to do things for myself sometimes. It saves me from bottling stress up, then exploding. My insecurities and judgment help me to be critical and see things as they really are. They protect me from becoming an egomaniac or too much of an idealist. I’m not perfect. No one is. Of course there are darker aspects of my personality, and very dark choices that I have made. However all of our personality traits function in different ways, good and bad. The important thing is to try to focus on using them to live by your beliefs and pursue the you who you want to be.
Overall, I enjoyed reading The Dark Side, even though I did not agree with all that Greene said. I found myself nodding my head as Greene noted that people show society the side of themselves that they want seen. To me, it made perfect sense; we act depending on what the particular situation we are in deems appropriate, being goofy around friends to show our “fun” side, serious in class to show our “AP student” side, et cetera. I also mostly agreed with Greene when he wrote that we cover up our insecurities with “something approximating the opposite”. The bully is a classic example. Often plagued by personal hardships—lack of self confidence, family troubles, an instance when he or she was taken advantage of, et cetera—the bully compensates by acting tough, hoping to avoid personal damage by harassing others. However, I do not 100% agree with Greene on this point. Not everyone houses a host of insecurities beneath the side of themselves they present to society. My brother, for example, is a genuinely “goofy” and happy-go-lucky sort of guy. He always had been, even as a young child, the time when Greene says that we let people glimpse our weaknesses and, realizing that this can only hurt us, we cover them up. Tristan did not develop his good-humor to cover anything up. I don’t want to get into nature vs. nurture, but I can more or less say that he came into the world predisposed to having an amiable temperament. He’s the kind of kid who laughed in his sleep as a three year old, just a happy guy who is not using his sunny side to cover up hidden malice. On the other hand, some leave flaws uncovered. For example, I’m not the most outgoing person in the world, to put it lightly. Instead of covering this up by being a social butterfly, I stay true to myself and just be me. I really don’t care if this is not the most positive character trait; I would be fooling myself if I tried to be something I’m not and, in fact, would probably fail miserably at attempting to cover this “flaw”.
ReplyDeleteI have to disagree that we are all drawn to the dark side of human nature and possess a deep desire to do the wrong thing. To a degree, many of us are drawn to the darker side of human nature, like the AP student who longs to cut gym once or twice “just because” he/she can do so and still get away with an A. However, I do not agree that everyone is drawn to the dark side to an appreciable degree or that we are drawn to this side significantly enough that we deeply yearn to do the wrong thing. The AP student who wishes to cut gym probably is not haunted by the prospect, kept up at night by the craving to be “bad”, and would move on with life and forget about it in a month even if he/she never acted on this desire. The desire is there, but it is not “deep”, not extreme. I see the desire to “do the wrong thing” as more of the exception than the norm, something that few experience often and feel powerfully and many experience rarely and feel mildly. The “villains” mentioned—the pimp, the hustler—are consistently doing “the wrong thing”, while the AP student may do the wrong thing occasionally. However, I don’t think it’s fair to consider the villains to be more “genuine”. Like I mentioned earlier, most of us are drawn to being moderately “bad” once in a while, while the villains want to be “bad” more often and to a greater degree. The way they delve into the darker side of human nature is different, but not more genuine. I should note, however, that my view may be a tad biased. “Genuine” has a positive connotation for me, and I wouldn’t feel right calling baddies “genuine” just because they more freely do what’s wrong.
As for being more intensely drawn to do the wrong thing when we are called out for our desire to do it, I think that is quite probable. If a child who is otherwise drawn minimally to the bad is caught and punished by his parents for, say, sneaking a cookie from the cookie jar, suddenly the temptation to break the rules increases. The parents created a challenge—“can you take another cookie without getting caught?”—and that challenge has a pull that is difficult to resist. Similarly, in this way society is partly responsible of creating “rebellious” teenagers. When authority figures call out teens, they provide them with a new a way to be cool and to differentiate themselves from adult society, thus increasing the desire to be bad (of course, this is not applicable to EVERY teenager in EVERY situation).
ReplyDeleteAs far as my “dark side” goes, while I generally try to be kind, thoughtful, and helpful, I can also be self-centered and a bit “bitchy”. However, this goes back to what I was saying earlier about how some, rather than covering their dark side with a veneer, leave their flaws in the open for world to see. I am (hopefully) not unkind, inconsiderate, and unhelpful, period. In fact, I like to think that I am more kind, thoughtful, and helpful than bitchy and self-centered. When I’m helpful, I am genuinely helpful, not trying to cover up self-centeredness. I don’t hide behind a façade of positive characteristics; rather, how I act depends on the situation. For instance, if I get frustrated with my brother, chances are I will be a bit of a witch. Yet if I was talking to a teacher and didn’t agree with something they said or like something they did, I wouldn’t be wicked, or, 99% of the time, even think of acting witchy. I would automatically turn to a different way of expressing my displeasure and finding a solution. The person and the circumstances determine how I act.
Manar: "Dark side" has a negative connotation... and I don't believe our other side is always negative.
ReplyDeleteGood point. “Dark side” makes me think of wickedness, although (using Greene’s view of the dark side) when Greene wrote that a politically correct person longs to let go and experience some chaos, I don’t see that as evil but rather different, if a bit less proper, than the person’s normal behavior. What you said about having different sides, which, though you don’t reveal them to everyone, are based on love or affection, made sense as well.
Sarah: “I don’t think it is as clear cut as “dark side” or “light side.” My good side is creative, determined, friendly, and loving. It sounds nice, but my good side I can be selfish when I’m being creative or determined.
ReplyDelete.”
I never thought of things that way, but it definitely makes sense. I could be “good” by being studious and preparing diligently for that Chem quiz on Thursday, but at the same time I could be lazy, using my studying as an excuse to shirk other responsibilities. “Good” and “bad” are really fuzzy grey areas, not black and white.
“Join to the dark side (wheeze) …we got cookiessssssss!”
ReplyDeleteNOT THOSE KINDS OF COOKIES, PERIOD 9/10. Ya pervs.
I really enjoyed this reading. It was really entertaining and the points Greene made convinced me entirely. I’ve was kind of on the fence about this topic before, but after reading this and discussing with my group, I’m sold. I do believe everyone has a dark side, including myself. Everyone has a different way of seeing this though because everyone has a different example in mind when hearing dark side. Some may think that dark side pertains to this evil alter ego that enjoys kicking puppies or something horrible. I believe that when Greene says everyone has a dark side, he means that they just have another side that they literally keep in the dark. They’re afraid to show this other side of themselves because they do not think it will be accepted by others.
Haha…When I read this, I immediately thought of the movie, “The Heartbreak Kid.” In the movie, Ben Stiller marries a woman quickly after he’s convinced she’s perfect. However, once they go on their honeymoon, he sees how crude and disgusting she really is. He’s introduced to her dark side, her other personality, her whole self. That’s why I really don’t like couples who go around after only two months saying, “Oh, babay…you’re the one for me. You’re my best friend. We know each other inside out.” (Figuratively and probably literally…haha) To truly be in love with someone you have to delve into all aspects of their personalities. You need to experience their true character and find out who they are entirely.
Yeah, I have a dark side. I keep many secrets about myself that no one knows. I’m not a serial killer or anything, but I just don’t want all aspects of my personality to be found out. I’m not trying to be “mysterious” but just not as easy to read as other people. Well, as an example of me having a dark side, I will tell a secret. I am a closet anime fan. When people said I drew anime, I got all angry and said, “NO! Anime isn’t even an art style! Don’t insult me like that!” (Even though back then my style basically was anime. Haha) The homophone example kind of reminded me of my anime problems. When I finally gave anime a chance, I realized that I really enjoyed it and that it was beautiful in its own way. It is a form of art, and a great one at that. That was a silly example, but it’s true! These are the things I think of when Greene says “dark side".
Greene's writing was contradictory to me, though I did enjoy it. He said that everyone has a dark side, and that we reveal only what we want to be seen. Then he goes on to say that we protest against what we really want. Though I enjoyed Greene's writing, I disagreed with almost all of it. I just like to hear what people have to say and their perspective of any subject. Unfortunately, it's easier for me to pick apart a presented idea rather than come up with my own at first to write about. With that said, I found multiple examples that disprove Greene's theory. I don't think that everyone has a dark side. Sure, everyone has insecurities and flaws that they don't necessarily care to reveal, but that doesn't mean that they have a dark side. Putting aside the negative connotation of "dark side," I still don't believe that everyone has one. As I have mentioned in class, I think it's an insult for someone to say I have a dark side. What it means to be is that the person thinks I'm hiding who I really am. It reverts to honesty, which I value very highly, and therefore I don't want to be dishonest and hide everything. There may be things about a person doesn't see in an individual, but it doesn't mean that that individual is hiding something.
ReplyDeleteWith that said about valuing honesty, I don't agree with "The strength of their denunciation equals the strength of their attraction." For me personally, I stay away from the "bad boys." If mostly everything they do is unethical to me, you won't find me attracted to it, but instead, the complete opposite. I believe that the strength of their denunciation actually equals the weakness of their attraction. I've just come to realize that when the fear of danger or getting hurt is involved, I act halfheartedly in the situation. Occasionally I find that people have the desire to do the "wrong thing," but I don't believe that this is an innate characteristic as most people do.
As I previously mentioned, I value honesty, and for that, I don't believe I have a dark side. Do I have flaws? Things I'm not always proud of? Of course. I don't like being jealous, I don't like being doubtful, and I don't like being afraid to let down expectation. But I am. I'm not going to hide that. I've let people see that, and I've made myself vulnerable. And for that, I don't think that I have a dark side.
Deanna: I agree with almost everything you said. What I notice a lot though, and I don't mean this in a bad way, is that you tend to have a hatred for everything you disagree with. I remember that you hated your first declamation because everything in it was the exact opposite of you. I think that sometimes we need to appreciate what people say, even if we may not agree. I think that you were very critical, but you presented it in a very well-written manner. Your paragraphs showed strong opposition, but your diction was very impressive.
ReplyDeleteSarah L: I always love reading your blogs because you are one of the most insightful people that I know. I agree when you say that people aren't all good or all bad. I think most are somewhere in the middle, and I respect that a lot from you especially since I know you believe that everyone is good somehow. I find it surprising that you are attracted to the bad boys. Well, actually, in True Blood, are you attracted to the bad boy character that mostly every girl falls for?
ReplyDeleteKatie G: I don't think you have a dark side. When you gave the example of the whole anime situation and how you didn't want people to know, it was, in fact, an insecurity that you had, or have. But the fact that you admit it makes me believe that you don't have a dark side. Maybe it's not something you're extremely open about, but by you telling us on this blog means that you aren't hiding it.
ReplyDeleteAfter reading anything, I go through a four-point checklist: Was the piece well written? Was it though provoking? What can I take away from it? And what is my overall impression of it?
ReplyDeleteComing across a piece of writing that fulfills each of these points to the same extent as The Dark Side did is to a lover of literature what cookies before dinner is to a child: yearned for, rare, and a delightful treat. I savored each complex, but simple, idea, being sure to get a taste of each and every little bit, and the aftertaste is still with me. Since Monday, I have been pondering the existence of my dark side- I think I know it exists, but I’m not so sure it is as cut-and-dry as a single, definable side, or even really dark in the archetypal sense of the word- and whether or not we all have one.
Initially, the questions that still resonate within me seemed so easy to answer. Of course we don’t all have a dark side. I’m not evil. But this is an instance where my tendency to over think is not as bad as people say. I questioned the complexities of the term dark. Dark can mean evil, hidden, or hopeless, among other things. Green could have been referring to all three, just one, or neither meaning. Being a person who feels the need to make everything work, fit together, or just connect in some way, I thought of my friend Kevin, whom I met at a leadership conference this summer.
Kevin, after spending a week with the “MLK family,” as we (the conference attendees) call ourselves, declared that he has never been so relaxed, so free to express himself, so happy. He then explained how he lives his life in Newark: with dreads covering his angry face- a showing of emotion or a kind gesture could, he told us, send him to the hospital, or the grave. The majority of us noticed Kevin’s hostility when he first boarded the bus to the conference location, but our first impressions dissipated as Kevin opened up and turned out to be an empathetic, emotional, and happy guy. At home, the side of himself he hid from sight, which I had the pleasure of seeing, was not evil or, for sake of a better word, bad at all.
Kevin’s story cleared up much of the enigma regarding the meaning of dark, and I changed my mind. I do have a dark side, but it is not necessarily evil. And then that over thinking thing kicked in again and I confronted myself with another issue. Side? What am I, a square? Side is so finite, so absolute- it just doesn’t sit right. Since the image of a square had popped into my mind, I imagined 20-sided dice. Maybe we can choose which side we land on, therefore hiding it. The opposite side would therefore be most exposed, but little bits of the eighteen unmentioned sides would be visible, depending on the angle at which a person was standing. If that die were flattened out, we would all go insane. There’d be too many sides to look at and no way to decipher emotion.
I say my dark side is my lack of self-esteem, but there are certainly times that the die has been flipped and my confidence is in the dark. There are other times when both my lack of confidence and abundance of confidence can be seen, depending on the angle at which you are standing, but my competitive nature is face down. The die of personality likely has more than twenty sides, and it may be weighted, but the commonly hidden side doesn’t need to be evil, socially unacceptable, or murderous to be in the dark.
Deanna:
ReplyDeleteWhen you said "just because I am ignorant of, say, Kelsey’s full personality, doesn’t mean that every part of her I don’t know is a dark side," I thought about shat you said about people being seen from different angles because of different situations. There is an infinite amount of situations in which I could find myself, and in front of any combination of the six billion something people on earth. If people have free will, then I can choose how to handle myself in these situations differently depending on who I am with.
Your ignorance of Kelsey's full personality may not be the result of your failure to notice, it could be Cheeker's deliberate choice to hide a part of her personality from you. Maybe this does not mean that what you don't see is her singular dark side, but if there are infinite situations and infinite angles at which to view a person, then wouldn't it follow that there are infinite combinations of which side is a dark side, depending on in whose presence you find yourself?
I’m told that one thing any guy will list among the most attractive traits in a girl is confidence, confidence to be themselves while not being afraid of making a fool of themselves in the process. People are naturally drawn to those who are confident, freely expressing who they are. Those who express “the dark side” (the pimp, the seducer, the hustler), are attractive to others because of this confidence. They aren’t afraid to show their true colors, even if it’s against the standards of society. I, and I assume many others, don’t always agree with the standards that have been set for us, but conform to them because I must in order to be seen as a “good” person. I relate to the person that Greene described as the one who is very politically correct, yet has the desire to do the opposite and experience some chaos. I would love to quit school and travel the world, learning in an unconventional way. I think I’d learn so much more through meeting other people from different places with completely different cultures than coming back to the same old building everyday in little Mays Landing, going through the same routine, walking class to class, like a robot. So the rebel that actually decides that they’re going to carry out this seemingly perfect idea of defying society and its principles to just do what they truly want becomes attractive.
ReplyDeleteHaving said that, everyone has a dark side. There’s no doubt in my mind that there isn’t one person that doesn’t have this alternate side, whether they chose to expose it or not. Everyone gets angry and thinks of horrible things about others, whether it’s something they want to say or do to them. The fact that these thoughts exist prove that the dark side exists within everyone, even if it’s only an ounce in one person compared to gallons in another. Obviously some people have a larger dark side than others. For example, criminals, especially rapists and murderers clearly have a more significant dark side than for example the founder of a nonprofit organization. However, even the worst criminals have a good side. They have someone they care for or have done at least one minor nice thing in their life. Everyone has both sides and some just can’t seem to accept this fact, the fact that they may be “dark.” The negative connotation of the word “dark” and the thoughts it provokes makes people not want to expose the presence of this side, however it absolutely exists in all. Many people connect “dark” with “evil” and that’s simply because evil things aren’t deemed acceptable, so people try to hide them away with other traits and bits of their personality that they don’t want people to see. Hiding these parts of ourselves doesn’t mean they don’t exist though.
I felt like Robert Greene was whining when he wrote this piece. In the beginning, it seemed like he might have a valid point to present, but by the end it seemed like he was just venting about a reporter that wronged him. Don’t get me wrong, it is perfectly fine to vent every once in a while, but to do it under the guise of intellectual thought irks me. People may say I missed the point of the article, but that’s fine with me, because I don’t really feel like there was a point at all.
ReplyDeleteMy biggest complaint about this article was his bold and unwarranted statement that said, “the very thing we protest against is most often exactly what we want”. In some situations, this may be true. However, in the VAST majority of cases, it is utter nonsense. If a man is vehemently against child abuse and goes on campaigns to end it, does that mean that he is secretly harboring an excessive desire to abuse children? I think not. Does a man who begs for his life at gunpoint really want to be killed? Does Stephen Wright secretly despise conserving the environment? There are so many different examples I can think of to disprove Greene’s theory. Just because SOME people who act out against something secretly want it doesn’t mean everyone does. This observation is more of a rare phenomenon than it is a concrete law of human personality, and to present it as concrete is a slap in the face to intellectuals everywhere.
As for the dark side concept in general, I believe it is only applicable in some cases. According to Sigmund Freud, every person has a part of his personality called the id. The id controls primitive instincts and operates on the pleasure principle. The opposite of the id is the superego, which controls morals and the like. The ego is the mediator between the two and the part that makes decisions. When talking about dark sides, what Greene is referring to is the functioning of the id. He sees the suppression of humanity’s primitive desires as a wrong decision, and thinks we should embrace that part of human nature. However, it is the controlling of this “dark side” that keeps society in line. Nobody would want rapists filling the streets. What’s so wrong with peace?
Suppressed instincts should not be considered a dark side. They are part of the functioning of personality. Those who let these instincts run wild (pimps and such) have personality faults. They are the ones in need of correction, not those who respect others and abide by the rules. The only way Greene’s dark side concept works is when dark refers to the side of someone that only their close friends see. In this way, I have a “dark side”. There is PLENTY about myself that I don’t show my friends, but it’s not because those parts of me aren’t socially acceptable. There are some parts of my personality that take more time to show, but it’s basically just due to order of importance. When I get to know people, I first learn about how they function in normal situations. After a while, more details start to creep out. Those details wouldn’t make sense without a foundation, so the basics had to come first. Not too many people know that I am a Modern Warfare 2 addict or that I like Three Days Grace, but why does that matter? Most people just don’t bother to get to know me well enough to learn that. It doesn’t mean that it is socially detrimental.
ReplyDeleteBy Greene’s definition, I don’t have a dark side. There isn’t a side of me that wants to go murder people, and I’m not withholding that just to stay socially accepted. There are details about me that people don’t know, but that’s true in just about any type of relationship, romantic or otherwise. Overall, Greene’s ideas are useful more to make us think than they are to describe concrete human processes. In this sense, his work is good. Thinking about how to refute his points made me try to reconcile all of my actions with understandable reasons. However, if someone attempted to take his article as fact, they would be sorely disappointed. His ideas, although thought-provoking, end up being mostly untrue. This article would be better used as fodder for intellectual conversations than as a section in a psychology textbook.
Jourdan S:
ReplyDeleteI agree that side is two divisive a word, and I like the comparison of personality to a die. Although we disagree about some of Greene's fundamental points, I like how you substantiated your points and the way your blog was written.
Deanna: Wow. Your blog was very passionate. However, I completely disagree. I agreed with what Greene had to say and could even relate to it. Obviously, not everyone can relate to the examples he has given with the billions of people worldwide, but he did portray those that are most common. Can you truly say that you don’t have a dark side… at all? And if society doesn’t allow you to show it, then doesn’t that mean that it remains hidden even if you want to expose it?
ReplyDeleteDeanna N:
ReplyDeleteI admire your writing. We agreed on almost everything, but I felt so much more conviction in your writing. When you write, it always seems like you are entirely sure you are right, and I wish I could be that certain sometimes. Your blog was very powerful, and after reading it there was almost no way I could disagree with you.
Kristen D:
ReplyDeleteI agree. There are people that do desire to do the wrong thing, but I'd rather not have to associate with them on a regular basis. I have flaws too, and they're quite similar to the ones you listed, but I don't see them as a dark side. I usually don't do "wrong things", but those who do have a dark side. Not everyone has to have one.
I really enjoyed reading the blog you gave to us in class and that we discussed through our ‘Last Word’ exercise. Thought I don’t agree absolutely with what Greene says. Though I do think that everyone has some sort of a dark side, I do not think that it is always the opposite of how we really feel. I find it sort of impossible to think that everyone is just living a collective lie. I did find truth in what he wrote, and also a lot of things to think about. Such as, do I have a dark side? Is it really so dark? What is it? Why is it different than what I see as my ‘light’ side? Is there really that much of a difference? Does this dark side exist in everyone?
ReplyDeleteThough I cannot answer all of these questions merely by reading this article, there are a few that I can relate to and I can answer through my opinion, experience, and analysis. On, Do I have a dark side? Yes. I think I do. Strangely though, I don’t think I can really point out exactly what it is. All I know is that there are parts of myself, not necessarily bad, that I hide from myself and others subconsciously. These things consist of my thoughts, opinions, and sometimes my true feelings. I think they are only my ‘dark side’ though because I choose (some consciously and some sub consciously) not to expose them to the light, or let them out to everyone to know.
I will agree on Greene’s idea that we sometimes act opposite as to how we really feel. Obviously I do not think this is all the time though, as Greene does. For example, there has been a few times where I have felt a certain way about someone but for fear of rejection and not being accepted for how I really feel I have rejected those feelings and began acting opposite to them in order to cope. The only reason I do this though is because of previous things that I have experienced. If those things had not occurred in my life, I probably would not ‘hide’ that part of myself so often. That’s why I don’t believe it is necessarily the way people are all the time. It all depends on the setting, the person’s history, and the situation. The feelings and the ‘side’ of me that I find to be my ‘light’ side are the emotions and opinions that I am comfortable sharing with everyone. Those are things like my sense of humor, my choice of friends, and my opinions on topics brought up in the classroom.
Deanna- I completely agree with you about the whole boyfriend knowing their girlfriends more than friends do. This is definitely true because friends, no matter how good they are, don't take the time to learn about friends. It comes naturally, and if that aspect of someone's personality has not occurred yet, then a friend will not know about it. I feel the same way as you do about this piece and how Martin Luther King Jr. did not have a racist dark side.
ReplyDeleteWe all have our moments. We can be grumpy and mean but they are just moments, not permanent fixations of the personality. After reading Greene’s article I had to put everything into perspective; does everyone really have a dark side? Well I think that people are very complicated and no single person consists of one side but I still do not agree with Greene. People do have secrets and sometimes hide things from others but I don’t see this as their “dark side”. It’s difficult to hold certain aspects of your personality in so I don’t really believe that an individual could only present one side of their personality because sooner or later this side of their personality has to get out. Many present themselves in ways that match the moment or occasion. Eventually each side has to come out. As far as acting against the very thing you want, I disagree. Some people may do this at times but most of the time it seems that we argue against the things we dislike and admit to what we do want. Otherwise we would all seem like total contradictions. I think each human being can show a side of themselves without hiding something. The student who always volunteers to help anyone is not necessarily hiding greed and evil behind their smile. Likely enough they probably just like helping. This may not be true in everyone but every person is different, some hide aspects of their personality in order to receive favored judgment while others are genuinely exactly how they seem. It just all depends on the person. At one point in time everyone has the desire to do the wrong thing but I highly doubt calling someone out on a negative thing will increase our desire to do the same. If one calls a friend out for stealing it does not mean that they long to be just like their friend and do the same thing. There may be some concern for the friend there but their choice to resist stealing will not lead to regrets.
ReplyDeleteI don’t believe that the villainous character is more genuine than anyone else. Like I said before everyone is different and just because a person is not bad does not mean that they are not genuine. I think people are attracted to the villain because the villain is the one who seems to demonstrate less fear and/or less care towards everything. People strive to understand this; how they can’t care and how they can do whatever it is they do without a fear of consequences or judgment. Most want to understand the rebellious, new kid because he is different and there is a sense of mystery surrounding him that pulls one in as they try to discover what makes him so different from everyone else. As far as my dark side, well I don’t really consider it to be a dark side; I just consider it to be another side. I am easily worried and I’m definitely not the most confident person in the world. I have my moments where I’m easily annoyed and I push people away. But there’s also the side where I’m bubbly, happy, carefree, and even able to display a confident attitude. I don’t hide these different aspects though, I don’t think I can. Each comes out depending on the situation so I really don’t think there is a dark side; it’s just a different side that to some seems less favorable and to others seems perfectly fine.
ReplyDeleteSarah L—“My insecurities and judgment help me to be critical and see things as they really are. They protect me from becoming an egomaniac or too much of an idealist. “
ReplyDeleteI really liked how you took what some would consider to be negative traits and made them possible. I agree that our personality traits function in different ways. Whether we see it or not, I think that our negative traits do help us at time. They are there for a reason along with the good traits. They help us see things in a different way that our positive traits could miss.
Jessie—“The person and the circumstances determine how I act”.
This exactly describes how I feel. My attitude changes depending on who I’m around and other aspects of a situation. At some point every different personality trait that makes me who I am has come out. And staying true to yourself is very important. Flaws make us all different and I think they are very important to seeing who we are ourselves.
Lucas—Wow Lucas, I agree with most of the things you said. I definitely agree that the statement about wanting the exact things we protest against was ridiculous. I don’t think that people mean the opposite of what they say. Of course there are a few exceptions but those exceptions are very slim. You gave some really good examples to back the point up. Even if I didn’t agree with you, I would still be able to understand your reasoning.
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ReplyDeleteJessie: I agree with you when you said that you don’t not feel villains are more genuine. I don’t think you can commend someone like that. The example you used with your brother, I thought of the same thing regarding Gwen. Some people are just always the way they are, no matter what. There’s always the exception. Lastly, did I tell you that I love you? :] The fact you stay true to yourself is so venerable. While you may not think it, I absolutely believe you are an amazing person.
ReplyDeleteResponse to Kristen: It is not that I hate everything I disagree with: I hate nothing, in fact. I don’t believe in garnering hatred for it only tears at the soul. I understand what you mean though. As Matlack would say, I’m intolerant. But I’m not intolerant of people. People can do what they want. It’s just that when we get into the meticulous details of things, we’re speaking mainly in a romantic sense, not practical. And, if you haven’t noticed yet ^_^”, I’m a very quixotic, altruistic person that likes to think of herself as the super hero. In real life though, I tolerate everything and everyone. Just philosophically, I like to be stronger.
Response to Jourdan: Absolutely not. I consider a dark side a hidden lifestyle, only seen in those morally wrong and “off’ in society, such as serial killers and rapists. If Kelsey doesn’t want me to know she loves Powerpuff Girls or something like that, then she simply just doesn’t want me to know. I don’t consider that a dark side at all. Not at all.
Lucas: I couldn’t agree with you more about Greene’s article. As I said in my blog, it seemed more like an illusion of intelligence rather than an actual thought-provoking point. I also wrote that I hated, HATED, when Greene said that what we fight against is what we want the most for the exact same reason as you did. I find it, for the vast majority of situations, inapplicable.
P.S. I just read your comment on my blog, and I oddly feel the same way about your writing. You come off so intelligent that it’s hard to think of a valid argument against you. Luckily, I don’t need to this time. :]
Response to Kaitlin: Yes, I can truly say with every fiber of my being that I do not have a dark side. I am just me. Our definition of dark side may differ though. I do not possess a hidden lifestyle, which is what I define as a dark side. I don’t hide anything, either. Experience has taught me that it’s better to always be yourself; it makes things easier on your conscience. And no, if someone doesn’t care to see a part of my personality, it doesn’t mean it’s hidden. In fact, it means that my personality is in broad daylight, and rather people just don’t have the interest to see it.
KTG: Oh Katie don’t worry, I love anime too. :] As I read your blog and just everyone’s in general, I think the reason there’s so much disagreement is because our definitions of “dark side” is different. Other than that though, your reference to the movie was clever, although I think finding out more about a person is just that -- finding out more about that person. No dark side involved. Either way though, I thought your blog was charming. :]
I enjoyed reading Greene's writing, but I don't agree with it that much. In some cases, yes, people at anti-gay rallies are actually gay. But, this does not apply to all cases. Sometimes the people at those rallies just think that being gay is wrong, and there's nothing wrong with that. I do agree with Greene when he says that everyone has a dark side, however, I don't think that it's ALWAYS the opposite of what we display ourselves as.
ReplyDeleteFor example, sometimes I will just hear someone's voice and get extremely annoyed and want to punch them in the face. Like last year in soccer when this girl kept on saying “Your mom” to me. The next time we played her and I heard her say something to her teammate about me, I pictured in my head me kicking the ball at her face, her falling backwards, and slamming her head on the goal post. I knew that I wasn't allowed to do that, so instead I just grabbed her jersey during the game and elbowed her in the face. This just goes to show that what we display can be what we really want to do (our dark side). I really wanted to hurt this girl, so I did. My dark side acted out.
Although sometimes we display our true self and what we really want, sometimes we do act the total opposite of how we want to. When I don't like someone, I feel that it's a waste of time to pick fights with them and start drama. Because of this, I will just be really nice to the person. Of course inside I want to smack them in the face, but in this case it's good to keep your dark side in the dark. Greene is right in a sense that we display the opposite of how we really feel, but I don't think that we always do. In some cases people will act how they really want to and be their true selves.
As shown in my examples, of course I have a dark side. I often wish bad things to happen to people in my head, but I usually don't do anything to make those things happen, unless it I think it's necessary. Some people will argue that it wasn't necessary for me to elbow that girl in the face at soccer, but saying “Your mom” to someone is not right at all, especially if you know that person doesn't have a mom. My dark side is usually just the thoughts in my head and occasional those thoughts lead to actions, but I do not hide my true self because sometimes I perform those thoughts.
First of all, I love the article, is that because it reminds me of the Dark Side of the force? Absolutely. But I also believe there’s some merit behind it. It’s human nature to serve our personalities sunny side up to people when we first meet them. But no one’s breakfast is perfect. Sometimes it takes a few bites to see what’s wrong with it.
ReplyDeleteThis piece of the theory, that people conceal some part of themselves that they are ashamed of, I agree with 100%. But I just don’t feel right calling it a dark side. As referenced above, the Dark side is mainly composed of Darth Vader, the pinnacle of malevolence, I mean come on he killed Obi-Wan. The Dark Side just connotates something evil. Though we may conceal something, it does not mean we are hiding from the public our nights blanketed by a veil of black, roaming the streets, preying on could be victims until we decide upon one and torture them until they beg for death. That, my friends, is a dark side. A secret lack of confidence? That’s not evil, that’s an insecurity.
I also disagree that a person’s personality or actions are the polar opposite of the concealed insecurity. Someone who’s really perky, in Greene’s view would hide a shy side. But perky people aren’t shy, perhaps their hidden aspect of themselves is that they are rebels or something unrelated.
And sometimes, what one wishes to hide is part of their everyday actions. Like people with self confidence issues, they’re not proud of it and don’t wish to broadcast it to the world. But they do not hide it because that’s impossible to hide, they just live with it and subconsciously weave it into all of their decisions. Just like loud people, they are loud on the outside, they are loud on the inside.
You cannot convince me that they posses some shy and fragile little girl inside that they’re over compensating for.
As for me? I’m not calling it a dark side because it makes me feel like a bad person. But what I mask? Is my desire. Desire to do the wrong thing, to get in trouble, to be bad. I love the very thought of letting my hair down and getting a little crazy…well maybe a little more than a little. I liked being the girl who always had a story to share with Stephen (<3) Monday mornings. Now don’t go stopping your breathing, Bunje. It’s a side of myself I’ve worked hard to repress and it took some practice but I can safely say that phase has come to a close. But I know that desire still lies somewhere within me and in the future, at a time when I wouldn’t break some hearts by letting it take growth, I can’t say I’d know what would happen.
Oh and being drawn to pimps and such because they are putting their crazy selves on full display? Don’t even try to push that one Mr. Greene. That is simply ridiculous. So yeah, those are my thoughts. And in conclusion, as someone once said: “Join the Dark Side…we have cookies!”
Alix- "I find it sort of impossible to think that everyone is just living a collective lie."
ReplyDeleteI 100% agree with this statement that you said. There's no possible way that everyone is the opposite of how they act. Some people are just themselves, and there's nothing hiding. Maybe they think certain things that seem different from their personality, but that is natural. Nobody can live a real lie like that their whole lives.
Taylor (sp?)- "That’s not evil, that’s an insecurity." I never really thought about this whole thing that way. I was just thinking of people's dark sides as the actions they make, not any personality aspect they are hiding. Now that I think about it, you're exactly right. People just hide things because they fear they won't be accepted in society, which is an insecurity. Good point
ReplyDeleteI have no dark side. I pretty much wear my heart on my sleeve. I don’t ever try and hide a part of me from people because I don’t want them to like me for someone I’m not. The more people get to know me, the more they see every aspect of my personality. After a short amount of time, there are no surprises and no shocks about my personality. I am not hiding anything from anybody and part of the reason is that I have nothing to hide. I am a generally happy person. I don’t go around trying to make people hate their lives. I don’t plot against society. I don’t use people, and I certainly don’t go around killing people in my spare time. Whether someone somebody interprets a dark side as something evil about someone that nobody knows about or as just a part of someone that is overshadowed, I do not have a dark side.
ReplyDeleteThough Greene makes some valid points in his blog, his theory that everyone has a dark side no matter what is completely untrue. In his blog, his really pushes the fact that all people have a dark side and that we can identify it easily because it will be the opposite of whatever emotion they’re trying to convey. I disagree with this for two reasons. One: I know some people, someone in particular who wears their evil side on their sleeve for everyone to see. Everyone can tell, just from one conversation with this person, that something’s off. They get an overall bad vibe. Two: I don’t think that if someone has an evil side, it would be easy to identify. I think identifying someone’s dark side is much harder than just thinking in opposites. If someone is nice all the time, it doesn’t mean they’re secretly evil.
Greene really pissed me off in general in this blog. I hate how he tried to promote seeing through people and finding their real personalities. If someone wants to hide something about themselves, it’s their business. Nobody absolutely needs to know everything about everyone. Also, some people, myself included, don’t even have a dark side. If someone, because of this blog assumed that I had a dark side I would be pissed. They shouldn’t assume things that aren’t true, and it makes me feel like they don’t trust me. Not everyone has a dark side, so there’s no reason for Greene to make people paranoid!
ReplyDeleteI apologze to everyone on this blog for spelling the author's name wrong. It's Green and I feel like a dumbass.
ReplyDeleteDeanna, you're sassy and brilliant and I freaking love you. Sorry, I had to get that out of the way. Everything you said was what I tried to put into good terms in my blog, but I couldn't. If I ever had to argue this point I would quote your whole freaking blog because it was brilliant. I loved your examples about Martin Luther King not being secretly attracted to racists and you now being addicted to porn. They were great examples that everyone can connect to. Also, I DO know about your Dragonball Z addiction! :D
ReplyDeleteAlix, your blog makes me bring up a point. You said that you do kind of have a dark sid. You said it's not necessrily bad, but it's thoughts and feelings that you choose not to show others. This is a borderline dark side. These thoughts and feelings can slip out, and I beleive that the second you tell someone, even one person, it's not a dark side anymore. When you choose to tell someone about how you feel, it changs from a dark side, to part of your personality.
ReplyDeleteLucas, I'm glad you brought up the part of the blog with the reporter. I didn't like how Green went from a somewhat decent topic to talking about his book. I not only thought he was whining, but he was promoting his book. The second I figured out where his story was going I wanted to shred the paper because I wasn't asked to read a review of his book. I WAS ANGRY. Thank you for being one of the only other people who thought he was being a whiny little piece of crap!
ReplyDeleteEvery time I read an article or a book that deals with personality, I shutter. I adamantly believe that a "personality" is not truly unique; it is merely a product of the events, surroundings, and the people we come in contact with--in addition to natural human behaviors, of course. The way I see it, 'personality' is the manifestation of emotions. And we are born with the capability to experience ALL emotions: joy, sorrow, jealousy, aggression, determination, etc. Thus, at birth, everyone in the world carries the seeds of all the personalities of the world, as they do with emotions. And throughout life, we "farm". Unconsciously, we watch other people's behavior and imitate them and allow their values and morals to sink into our mind and bloom within ourselves--it's the natural programming of the animalistic conscience. Everything you can possibility think of WILL mold you into what you believe is your "unique" personality.
ReplyDeleteBut this does not imply that people are all replications. Uniqueness only applies to the fact that everyone has a unique life, or unique series of events, culminating into different combinations of personalities. These personalities can be fostered in different ways, but they are essentially the same, such as greed through power or greed through grades. Some may go astray from their surroundings through creativity, differences in culture/ time periods, and curiosity. For instance, during the discussion, Alexis asked me about people living in the ghetto: "Do they always turn out to be criminals? What about moral heroes that grew up there?" This is where human behaviors come in. Naturally, people possess sympathy and compassion, even though many may suppress it to the point that it is almost impossible to restore. Somewhere along the lines, a person in the ghetto witnessed a success that resulted from determination. Through a combination of determination and sympathy and a bit of creativity, a person of the ghetto is able to turn out, as Alexis said, "Alright." In the end, that "flower" will not bloom because another event will prevent it from taking shape. (I wish I could elaborate more but I don't want this to be too long)
Additionally, in Greene's article, I noticed how he oversimplified something as convoluted as a personality. Greene’s assertions imply that every 'positive' personality is counteracted by a 'negative personality." This is TOO simplistic and almost utterly wrong. While I believe that everyone has the capability to grow ALL personalities, it does not mean that the 'politically correct' personality is fostered to the same extent as the 'chaotic' personality. I think Greene is referring to the people who are exposed to and forced to act politically correct for such a long time, that they get tired of it. After all, a person cannot physically handle too much of one thing, and that applies to personalities as well. The need for chaos may be there but lying dormant waiting for the person's "drive for change" to kick in. I don't believe that such extreme polar opposites of personalities can coexist. A person can only manage to act out fake-cheerfulness for so long. On the other hand, another politically correct person may find show signs of another natural feeling: comfort in the familiar. This person is genuinely politically correct. Like I said before, it all depends on the course of a person's life.
Furthermore, Greene writes as if he has some kind of paranoid idea that everyone is a manipulative, cut-throat b**** (like the doctor from House!). I can only agree with him half way. Life all comes down to primitive instincts. The one that I see most often is survival-of-the-fittest. Whether its pessimism or the stone-cold hard truth, everyone is out for their own good. While optimistic-believers may not agree, unfortunately altruism can only go so far. This survival-instinct, especially in this civil society where the wilderness is practically on another planet, is beyond the normal consciousness. Most people may believe they act generously, but there is an unconscious motive behind it—like a benefit or reward. But the key is: people don't realize it! The intent may be justified and moral, but even the genuinely kind people unconsciously want something from it--such, the feelings of gratitude in knowing you do something right. Still, I disagree with the fact that Greene believes this is all knowingly hidden. How he can see such wrong in everyone is beyond me!
ReplyDeleteThis brings me to the older post that says everyone has "an unmistakable desire to be the 'wrong' thing." I believed a while ago when I witnessed so many of my own peers speaking about sexually-implicit matter or drugs / alcohol in a pompous tone, even if it is as a joke. (Classmates, don't lie.) But now I know better. I don't understand why Greene sees everyone as an inward Dr. Evil. People do not naturally have a 'desire' to do wrong; it only comes because rebellion and other going-against-the-rules behavior is ...I can't say 'idolized' because that is too strong of a word. Often, the proper, rule-obeyer is taunted while the REBEL is high-fived. (Look at the connotations of that word! The word "cool' comes to mind). So I completely disagree, people do not yearn to break the rules, it's done as a way to fit in.
Finally...the dark side. I hate this phrase. Everyone does have a dark side, in the sense that they have aspects of their behavior that are considered "bad" to society. After all, like I said, everyone has the ability to be any type of personality (even though that ability will wane as a person ages). Think of some 'positive' personalities: happy, charming, and passionate. Now, think of some 'negative' personalities: jealous, aggressive, angry, dominating, sorrowful. First of all, I know those lists are ridiculous, but they prove my point--there is no way to truly categorize what is a GOOD or a BAD personality. Thus, how can we know what's DARK and what's LIGHT? I'm sure everyone has acted at least one of these 'negative' personalities. If not these five, then other ones I didn't list. But while not everyone is 100%-ly evil to their core, everyone does have a dark side--I know I do.
Kristen: I’m really complemented that you’d say that. Thank you. I don’t usually fall for bad boys. I like the in between. As for True Blood, I’m not obsessed with the bad boy, but the show would be a lot less interesting without him. Actually if all the characters on it were perfect and innocent all the time, I’d probably stop watching it.
ReplyDeleteI don’t think it’s a bad thing that you picked apart Greene’s argument. It’s good that you can be rational and critical. I agree with you that not everyone wants to do the wrong thing. I think desiring to hurt yourself or do something you don’t think is right is self destructive. If so many people are successful and happy, how can they also be self-destructive? I admire you for facing the things you don’t like about yourself. Because you can do that you’ll be able to use them to your advantage.
Seduction: most commonly thought to the definition of a person I suppose, "using their wiles" to win over a person and get them to do what the seducer wants. I quite enjoyed this article on seduction and the possibility of a dark side. I am often intrigued with analysis on human nature and certain facets that others observe in humans, so this article was very interesting to me and the author made it very interesting and made good points that made me really think very carefully.
ReplyDeleteBut, I don't agree with Greene. The points that he made people are always hiding something and always tend to be the opposite of what they seem to portray. I believe that people can have a dark side, but it doesn't always exist. Also, having a dark side isn't always the typical, "I want to murder everyone secretly and wreak havoc!", dark side could simply mean different and whether or not it's dark could be based on a person's perspective. One person may think confidence is actually being cocky, so to some it's dark and to another it's an admirable attribute. But, I believe a dark side is only dark depending on what you choose to do with your flaws. If you exploit them and use them to take advantage of other people, or to hurt other people then it's obviously a dark side. If you use it to help yourself and embrace it, then it becomes something that's should be of no concern at all.
I believe that everyone has some good inside of them. I believe that everyone deep down knows that what they're doing is wrong, and that when people do bad things they're just convincing themselves it's right, though they know it's wrong. I don't think that I'm a good person, but I believe that I have the ability and the potential to be good, and I am well on my way to being good. But, I do have a dark side. I tend to let my jealousy get in the way of really connecting with people and my lack of self esteem makes it even harder for me to connect with people. That is my dark side, and it will continue to be dark side until I can find a way to deal with it and maybe turn it into a good thing after time. I never try to hide my dark side, and if asked I will tell my flaws and of course I will be ashamed, but I will own up to my "not so nice" flaws. I guess you can say that I am a seductress, but I won't hide it, just try to improve it so that I can use those things to make things better instead.
I have a love-hate relationship with this piece of writing. In the beginning, I found myself drawn in, curious about the points that Greene was soon going to present to me. However, the more I read, the more I seemed to get frustrated with his claims. I nodded my head in agreement when he began his second paragraph with ‘People present to society the side of their personality they want to be seen”, but immediately after that I began to disagree with everything that followed. He said that beneath the side that we show to society lies a side that it full of insecurities and weaknesses. The cheerful, pleasant person is actually an angry, possibly borderline, emo kid. The individual that has a very ‘Posh Spice’ persona is secretly a dirty slob who loves to lay in his or her own filth. None of this makes any sense to me. Why does their ‘dark side’ have to be the exact opposite of the way they normally present themselves? And does that ‘dark side’ have to be a facet of themselves that they hide entirely?
ReplyDeleteWith this said, I eventually found myself disagreeing with most of Greene’s points. That is not to say that I didn’t enjoy his writing however. I felt like he gave me a completely new idea to ponder and form my own opinions about, I just didn’t find myself in accordance with the points he made. For me, a person’s ‘dark side’ does not have to be completely hidden away. Saying it like that makes it feel as if every person has an alter ego. Like everybody has a Sasha Fierce. Just the thought of everybody living what can pretty much be defined as a double life, baffles me. You show me someone that has two completely different personalities, and I’ll tell you that there is most likely something wrong with them. I mean, I'm not pointing out the people who are a certain way in school, and then completely different once school is out. That is not showing their ‘dark side’ or their ‘light side’, merely different aspects of their personality in various setting. I'm talking about the person who literally has two different sides to them that they keep separate. For me, that idea just doesn’t click.
In no way do I believe that everybody has a ‘dark side’. As it has been said previously, the term ‘dark side’ has negative connotations that come along with it. Upon hearing that, I always imagine the face of someone, with one half of it hidden in the dark. By using that term, it suggests that we never get to see the person fully, and that everybody has a completely different side of him or her that no one is aware of. Of course, everybody has secrets and things they are not comfortable with expressing, but that does not have to equate to their dark side. They are merely insecurities. The way I view it, the perception of a person’s ‘dark side’ is subjective. For example, someone may view their dark side as the times when they become brutally honest, blunt, and even rude. They do this whenever they feel like their point isn’t being presented properly, or when they feel threatened. It’s not a side of them that they readily enjoy showing to people. Yet, someone who values honesty and the straight truth, may view their bluntness as refreshing or genuine, and that when they repress these thoughts, they are now presenting their dark side. Make sense? I, myself, do not have a dark side, because there is no part of myself that I keep hidden from everybody all the time. I’m frequently jealous, borderline rude, and occasionally a tad bit ‘ghetto’, but I don’t see any value in hiding that from society. Sure, I have insecurities and weaknesses, but I don’t believe that they all come together to form the ‘Evil Gwen’. As humans, there are aspects of our personality that come out depending on the situation. I believe that in these situations, everybody is able to reveal a part of themselves that they may not in everyday life. The traits and flaws that we generally view as unfavorable are not the things that I would group together to form an individual’s dark side. Instead, they are just aspects of their personality that everybody possesses and eventually shows, regardless of whether they are proud of them or not.
ReplyDeleteTo build on that, I am strongly against the claim, "The strength of their denunciation equals the strength of their attraction.” The fact that pimps, or seducers, or whoever take their secret desire for lust and morph it into a business or way to exploit themselves does not make me feel closer to them in anyway. I'm sure there are cases off someone vehemetely fighting against something that is secretly harboring a desire for that exact same thing, but for the most part, I do not believe that applies. There is a big difference between fighting passionately for something and denying it strongly just because you want it. Just because I fight strongly against abortion, doesn’t mean that I secretly love the idea of taking a whack at the body of a pregnant woman with a bat. Greene tends to speak in generalities for a majority of the time, and in being a person who likes to cater to the small differences in people, it’s a facet of his writing that that I just found irritating.
Sarah Chamberlain -
ReplyDelete"Though Greene makes some valid points in his blog, his theory that everyone has a dark side no matter what is completely untrue."
I completely agree with this. I really believe that there are people that are just good and don't mean to hurt anyone and don't ever do that. I know a couple of genuinely good people that I have never heard say one legitimately mean thing. Then again, I guess this opinion all depends on how optimistic people feel about the human race. And if you ever go around killing people on their spare time, I'm gonna slap you senseless! <3
Taylor Palm -
ReplyDelete"It’s human nature to serve our personalities sunny side up to people when we first meet them."
Though I do agree that there can be many different sides to people's personalities, I don't quite think it's true that people will always show their good sides to people. I think they only just want to show what will make them be treated the way they want to be treated. If someone wants to be seen as a rebel, they'll be defiant and very aloof, which aren't particularly good traits because they may come off as rude or insensitive. Not everyone will show themselves "sunny-side up", but I do understand where you're coming from and your metaphor made me smile! :)
Taylorr:
ReplyDelete'Oh and being drawn to pimps and such because they are putting their crazy selves on full display? Don’t even try to push that one Mr. Greene. That is simply ridiculous.'
I completely agree with that. I not only thought that idea was absurd, but the more i thought about it, the more pissed off it made me. Maybe instead of talking about it, I should have simply left the topic alone like you did. haha
Hannah Straub -
ReplyDelete"Although sometimes we display our true self and what we really want, sometimes we do act the total opposite of how we want to."
Though I agree with your point, it makes me uncomfortable thinking about it, because it's basically true- a lot of people act fake. It's an unfortunate thing and will often cause problems to both the individual and the whoever interacts with them. And I'm not sure why people act fake, either for attention or to be liked or to cater to insecurities or something, but most of the time, some people simply do it for no reason and I never quite understood that.
Jessie!
ReplyDelete'Overall, I enjoyed reading The Dark Side, even though I did not agree with all that Greene said. I found myself nodding my head as Greene noted that people show society the side of themselves that they want seen. To me, it made perfect sense; we act depending on what the particular situation we are in deems appropriate, being goofy around friends to show our “fun” side, serious in class to show our “AP student” side, et cetera.'
I felt the exact same way. I loved reading his work, i just disagreed with most of the things he said. However, I pointed out the same section of his writing that you did. In fact, that was also the same point that I talked about in our speaking and listening exercises. This was the only point of his that I actually completely agreed with. It makes the most sense to me. People will be the people that they want to be perceived as for a majority of the time. Although, this may slip occasionally, I don't think that these instances equate to that individuals 'dark side'.
I wrote my answer to this blog already. But then I suddenly realized, after discussing it more in class, that my answer is different from what I had previously written.
ReplyDeleteI thought about what people have said today and I know what my answer is now. Everyone has a dark side. What everyone doesn’t have is the same definition for “dark side.” I listened to everyone in class ponder about the crazy thought of this supposedly “alter ego” that we all hide behind us. I believe in it. To me, a “dark side” is just the version of us that we don’t show; plain and simple. It is not the version of us that we’re afraid for other people to see. It’s not the version of us that we’re insecure about because of the fear of negative judgment. No, it’s just the side that we choose not to show others.
“Dark” puts in a connotation that a person is like Darth Vader ready to stomp around in his helmet and take over the galaxy or whatever he does in those 20 million movies. Dark, just like what Robert Greene said, is like the side of the moon that we do not see. Therefore, it’s just the “hidden” or “unrevealed” aspect of a human’s personality. So, I think we should call it the “hidden side.” Yeah, I’m going to call it the hidden side from this point on.
So, I think about it this way. Remember the happy place that everyone had to go to before Bunje gave us our February calendars? You know, the pre-pre-death month calendars. Well, the happy places we all went to, whether it’d be our rooms or a nice patch of grass under the tree in your back yard, are the places in which our hidden side is revealed. I mean, I’m not limiting the places where our hidden side is revealed. I’m just saying that our hidden side is the version of us that we keep near and dear to our hearts. Everyone needs their alone time. Whoever we are during that alone time, is the hidden side that no one else in the world can see.
See, the only problem that I had was that I don’t agree with his theory of a person’s hidden side being the absolute extremity of their regular personality. I don’t believe that a happy person is really just hiding the fact that they’re all gloomy and depressed inside. I don’t believe that an aggressive person is always a humble giant inside. I don’t believe that those shy ones are usually not the wallflowers in their dark side. My thing is, what about those that express themselves in all shapes and form? Or maybe, what about those that are in the middle of the spectrum? Where is there opposite?
That’s the only thing that really bothered me with Greene’s article. The rest I just found funny and relatable. I kept on thinking about my hidden side. There’s actually a lot of them. I’m like Sybil deep inside really.
Lucas Blagucas.. [ ew. sorry. xD ]
ReplyDelete'I felt like Robert Greene was whining when he wrote this piece. In the beginning, it seemed like he might have a valid point to present, but by the end it seemed like he was just venting about a reporter that wronged him. Don’t get me wrong, it is perfectly fine to vent every once in a while, but to do it under the guise of intellectual thought irks me.'
AH! I FELT THE SAME WAY! At the start of the essay I thought that the reading would be worthwhile and enlightening. However, once I turned it over I was really ticked off at him because I felt like he was whining during most of it. Not to mention a small bit of name-dropping. >.< Perhaps it was just the ending that bothered me...oh, nevermind. I just feel like he could've have written this article in a more effective way, and in a way where I didn't feel the overwhelming need to disagree with all of his examples.
Sarah C-
ReplyDeleteYou make a valid point that “identifying someone’s dark side is much harder than just thinking in opposites.” Nothing is that clear cut. But I don’t understand how the person you mention who wears evil on their sleeve proves that Greene’s point is untrue. First of all, I don’t think you are giving that person much of a chance because you are narrowly assuming something is ‘off.’ And secondly, you believe that the ‘dark’ side is the part of someone’s life that is overshadowed (which I guess I missed that point completely). So this means that you don’t believe that within that one person is a truly kind person? It sounds to me as if you are saying there are completely evil people in this world, which I agree with, but in high school? I doubt it. Give people a chance and you may be surprised.
Taylor-
I love the way you just say what you have to say quickly and playfully! I was worried as I wrote my blog that it was going to be too long and have less quality than quantity. So after reading your blog, I think I may try to write more like you! =) Also, when you said “It’s human nature to serve our personalities sunny side up to people when we first meet them” I thought about …what if it’s human nature to serve our personalities sunny side down after we know people for a while? Not acting extraordinarily mean to someone after a while, but revealing parts of your life you kept hidden? Either way, I loved the ‘sunny side up’ part!
Brittany—
ReplyDeleteI disagree with more than half of your blog. “We can be grumpy and mean but they are just moments, not permanent fixations of the personality.” ----No, there are some people act grumpy and mean all the time because of certain things that happened in their life. For instance, if a person’s spouse cheated on them and left to marry their lover, the person could hold a grudge for a very long time.
“It’s difficult to hold certain aspects of your personality in so I don’t really believe that an individual could only present one side of their personality because sooner or later this side of their personality has to get out.” ----No, It’s not that hard. 99% of the people in your life (not to sound pessimistic) don’t truly care about you or pay attention to you 100%-ly. Haven’t you ever heard of ‘fake-smiles” or ‘smirks?”
“Some people may do this at times but most of the time it seems that we argue against the things we dislike and admit to what we do want. Otherwise we would all seem like total contradictions.”---No, we are all total, or at least partial, contradictions in the first place. Most of us do not know what we stand for because we always change. Things happen to us that open a door to reveal something we never knew before. Look how many people went back and forth on the slavery issue or the civil rights movement!
“The student who always volunteers to help anyone is not necessarily hiding greed and evil behind their smile.”----No, at certain times, students do this. For instance, for NHS: Back in NJHS in middle school, the only reason most people did volunteer work was to get the hours. There are motives to volunteer rather than just helping people. Volunteers could greedily want to be seen as a kind person and thus volunteers many times.
Well, Brittany. I know this seems like I’m attacking everything you said. I just don’t agree…at all.
Gwen,
ReplyDelete"I’m frequently jealous, borderline rude, and occasionally a tad bit ‘ghetto’..."
I laughed for a good two minutes when I read that line. I agree with you though that sometimes a person hides things because of their insecurities. I think that people just learn how to filter themselves nowadays to prevent harm, whether it'd be physical or emotional, to themselves or those around them.
Part One
ReplyDeleteShock value, is what Greene for most intended to portray, for me this piece wasn’t shocking at all. Though I am fixated on books that present unconventional ways of looking at different situations, giving me new perspectives that get me to say “Wow, never looked at it that way.” Although those are solely the books and articles that speak to me, it doesn’t infer that I abhorred the context presented in Greene’s article. I actually loved his article and find him thoroughly interesting because what also draws me to how authors write books or articles is how they can openly discuss the truth. From his article, Greene to me seems like a man of truth. I could be totally wrong considering that maybe he preaches honesty in his your life but maybe he is living a lie himself? I will never know, but what I am saying is judging by his observation, in my opinion he has people pretty much pegged. Most people are seriously, contradictions, what you see is not what they are composed of in the inside the inside they harbor a dark side that truly only is revealed within them. What I like is that Greene mentions that he is not being a “Cynical,” but he notices that is the way of life. I like how he takes the initiative to say that because, many people having a dark side is a bad thing. When in actuality it just one of the many composites of who are you as a person. At first, I didn’t fully grasp his views on the art of seduction but after reading the article again, I understand that we are drawn and intrigued by ideas that we always argue against. Everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too. For example maybe someone will preach about not cursing in public, but then secretly curses when
Part 2
ReplyDeleteno one is around. Basically, I agree with his core arguments that everyone has a dark side but there is one point I 100% don’t necessarily agree whole-heartedly with him on.
A pimp’s life, yes they are living off of impulse, but maybe that’s because it’s how they survive. He mentions through the text that he basically regretted the ways of a pimp’s life. That indicates to me his “dark side.” To the pimp’s falling in love is something out of the ordinary, a shameful concept the dark side. Maybe that is Iceberg Slim was contemplating with as being a pimp? Maybe never experiencing a love from someone caused him to turn to this lifestyle? To rebel, when internal all he wanted was to be loved. I don’t know if those outcomes are truly accurate to his story but what seems evident to me is that pimp’s don’t live a genuine life they hide behind the title. I feel all those lifestyles are defensive mechanisms, like Greene mentioned on before. Nobody participates in a lifestyle of a “seducer”, “pimp” or hustler without motive. Something that they are either running away from, or thing they are running to. That’s why they are not genuine in there ways because if their hiding or trying to improve themselves then they are just masking their dark side just as everyone else is. What trips people up is that being those thing carry derogatory, connotation and they are politically incorrect titles to hold. Though that could be seen as a dark side and them just acting on their actions, it still represses and covers what they are trying to hold from the world. That’s why “dark side” doesn’t necessarily mean your bad side.
Part 3
ReplyDeleteWhat about myself having a dark side? Yes, I can say I have somewhat of a dark side. It’s hard for me to talk about because it’s very dear to my heart and extremely personal. Though I contain that hidden side, I am generally the girl you see in the hallways, classrooms and anywhere else you see me. For many years my dark side had taken all of that spirit, niceness, cheerfulness, smiles and laughs that I contain now. That’s why know I feel as though I am getting my opportunity of being who I want to be. I am not saying that I don’t have ill feelings towards people or I never get ticked or sick in tired of people and society. What I am saying is that though select few know the circumstances of my “dark side,” and I will never expose it I feel it has caused me to live a double life. At one point it consumed who I was, restricting me from life and yes, I hid it. Hid it with everyone ounce I could, but what I can say about my “dark side” is it brings out all of my worst qualities. Though I refer to the “dark side” of not being expressed through negative connotation, I can honestly say that how you perceive me in school, is truly who I am. I don’t like fake people, so why be it? I know I may sound contradicting about if I have a dark sides, so I will be concise. Yes, I have a dark side. Things about me I don’t want others to know, things that I hide from society. Why? It’s defense mechanism, because “Hey, my dark side, is not politically correct.” Though that exist, I am still Bubbly Brynne, with bouts of sarcastic lines, occasional snipe aggressive comments, and in desperate need for organizational skills. I don’t hide my flaws, I try to embrace them and work on them. I would be the first to tell you I am disorganized, a little too nice at times, a pushover and the list can extend. It’s different because for so long I feel that dark side took a hold on me and restricted me now I finally feel I can be Brynne.
When we first started reading the article in class, I didn’t like it. I thought the author was to one sided. However, as the article progressed he started using words like “often” and “most people”. I loved the ideas the author put forward.
ReplyDeleteI agree with what Greene was saying to a certain extent. I like when he said that we put our fake side forth, and hide our dark side. However, I don’t think that applies to everyone. I would argue that, though a majority of the people due, more than thirty percent don’t. The problem with Greene’s argument is that he is assuming that everyone cares, which I believe is false. We are at a time in our lives, where all we do is care what others think. I don’t think we will ever stress out as much about what others think as we do in high school. That being said, high school is only four year. For those of us who do go on to college, I believe this obsession will continue, but it has to stop eventually.
Going back to what I said in class, old people don’t care. We live in 2010; we have a black president, yet some old people are still racist. Why? Because they don’t care. It is not considered socially acceptable to be racist, in fact in my opinion its just plain stupid. However, millions of people are, and why, because they just don’t care.
This long example brings me back to my point that; at a certain age we stop caring what others think. I think when it comes to what others think about our “dark side” we stop caring middle age. For example, after you get married and have a few kids, you have bigger problems then worrying about what others think of you.
I totally have a dark side. I believe that everyone has one. I don’t believe they are a “bad thing”, and ask anyone who knows me and they’ll say I don’t really hide it that well. I consider some of my traits my “dark side”, not because they are hidden, but because they are traits I wish I didn’t have.
I am the complete opposite of a pushover. This gets me into trouble sometimes. However, I never see the point of keeping my mouth shout until after I do something stupid.
I am a procrastinator, and most of the time I don’t even care. I get so much work, make a plan, but when that plan goes south I just feel like “eh” what ever. People look at me like how are you not freaking out, that’s my “i-don’t-care” attitude, which also gets me into a lot of trouble.
Kaitlin,
ReplyDelete"I would love to quit school and travel the world, learning in an unconventional way. I think I’d learn so much more through meeting other people from different places with completely different cultures than coming back to the same old building everyday in little Mays Landing, going through the same routine, walking class to class, like a robot."
I think I just fell in love with you, or should I say your dark side, all over again! Can you take me with you when you do this?
:)
Anyways, I don't agree with you though when you talk about a person's dark side by being a bad person like with the murderers or the rapists. I believe that the dark side of a person is the other version of someone that is not publicized for certain reasons. With yours, I think your dark side is that inner nomad in you that wants to sequester from being politically correct and travel the world. It's not a bad thing, but it's your hidden side.
Shirley- I get what your saying and somewhat agree with you that people maybe are very one-dimensional. Like happy people maybe their temperament is just general happiness. Though that can be very true, I disagree because I feel that we all our running away from something or were running to something that is going to enhance who we are as a person. It may not make valid sense, but people are complex, nobody is one-dimensional everything in life has an underlying meaning typically.
ReplyDeleteSarah L,
ReplyDeleteI really never thought about what you said in your post about the falling for the bad boy type of thing. I think I'm going to have to agree with it though because of the fact that I'm in the same situation. I want someone who I can't have. This person is probably the complete opposite of me. I'm the type to be out there and confident, and to me he's just the person who's quiet and demure. Maybe, just maybe, the people who we find attractive are those who are really within us.
Sarah C - "I have no dark side. I pretty much wear my heart on my sleeve. I don’t ever try and hide a part of me from people because I don’t want them to like me for someone I’m not. The more people get to know me, the more they see every aspect of my personality. After a short amount of time, there are no surprises and no shocks about my personality."
ReplyDeleteHaha Sarah. Ya got that right. Especially when you go bat shit crazy on people in the hallways! I really admire you for this though. It's good that you don't hide anything.
Kristen: "Maybe it's not something you're extremely open about, but by you telling us on this blog means that you aren't hiding it."
Yeah, I agree with you. That example was more of a self conscious trait instead of a "dark side" I do still believe I have many things to hide and that' why I agree with Greene though. Not everyone is the same though. That can be said for everything!
Shirley - "Additionally, in Greene's article, I noticed how he oversimplified something as convoluted as a personality. Greene’s assertions imply that every 'positive' personality is counteracted by a 'negative personality." This is TOO simplistic and almost utterly wrong."
I get where you're coming from, but that's almost asking him to define humanity. He's explaining the common traits of the majority, but if he were to go in depth about each different personality it wouldn't really be possible....and boring! hahaha
KTG- Your writing is so truthful and that"s why I am generally entertained by your respones. I totally agree about that "baby you love me thing" after two months because really probably the most advance thing you know about them it what there favortie color is? The heartbreak kid makes me sad and gives me trepidation for my upcoming future of finding someone who will accept my "dark side" . Thats why I am afraid of love and preach against it!
ReplyDeleteA dark side is a certain aspect of your personality that is kept private, a weakness that would make you seem vulnerable and in some cases, useless. However, those aspects, do not necessarily refer to the socially accepted definition of “bad.” Greene states that a pimp, seductress, and hustler are more “genuine” for being open about their “dark side,” however, they might be worse off than Greene has suggested. If a hustler shows his “dark side” through his words, and actions, then they are not private. Meaning, that their choices do not express their “dark side.” It would be their private compassion, love, and honesty that prevails in the darkness. For fear of vulnerability, the hustler represses that “good,” with the façade of poor choice of words and actions.
ReplyDeleteGiven this, I do agree with Greene’s idea of people having a “dark side.” My disagreement lies solely in his black and white definition. While, reading Greene’s piece, I was not shocked, because I have read a million too many Cosmo’s and Seventeen’s. Everything he said, could have been summed up with all the “How to know if he really likes you” and “How to deal with anyone” articles. The simple psychology described in those articles is equal to that of Greene’s piece, just more subtle. However, something Greene described that was never touched in all those articles I’ve devoured, is the idea to use the new-found information. I don’t think you could call that manipulation though, because then you would have to call every single Myspace and Facebook page a manipulation in deciding what people should know about you. Therefore forming (manipulating) their opinion of you. Does that online show of who you want people to see, deserve the overly harsh connotation? Whatever your answer may be, it does not deform the concept of having a “dark side.”
On a much more personal note, I must say I do have a “dark side” because we all do, its an almost necessity in survival. Without this aspect of our personality, we would not be humans. Humans feel vulnerability, as much as it’s hated, it is felt. So, in avoiding the wrath of being vulnerable, we, as humans, hide beneath our personas, our Facebook pages, and Yahoo messengers. We hide the part of our selves that must be hidden, it must be hidden to progress in life. The hustler does this in hiding his compassion for others with selfish gain. I do this, through avoidance. You do this, through the fear of being vulnerable.
Greene’s article was controversial, because people fear being taken advantage of…. Feeling vulnerable. And that, although not Greene’s intention, is the response felt throughout reading the article.
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ReplyDeleteSimon V:
ReplyDeleteLike you, I liked the way Greene wrote the piece, I just didn't like what he wrote about. He was way too general and didn't account for the variability in human nature. Just because some who speak out about homosexuality are gay doesn't mean everyone is. Generalities often make people look like fools.
P.S. Robert Greene is a man.
Brittany: “As far as acting against the very thing you want, I disagree. Some people may do this at times but most of the time it seems that we argue against the things we dislike and admit to what we do want.”
ReplyDeleteI’m with you. While I suppose this could happen, most people who passionately back a cause truly believe in it. For instance, I’m a vegetarian, and I support animals’ rights. This is who I am and what I believe in; I’m NOT hiding some sort of meat-hungry butcher who enjoys torturing innocent creatures under the veneer of an animal lover, nor am secretly I drawn in any way to the people who abuse animals.
Deanna- Though your argument was valid, and your opinion. I just feel that you are not embracing what he is trying to convey through his text. The dark side is necessarily not negative, it's more or less something we hide from our peers because it may be politically wrong or we may lose their respect. I am sure if you really ventured through the depths of yourself you find yourself faced with a problem something you believe in that you would never expose to others. A part of me feels like you are living in denial, but I could be wrong too.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, I found this piece quite annoying. It bothered me how Greene was so sure that his personality types about people apply to everyone. The fact that he generalized pretty much everything was annoying as well because, personally I dislike generalities about people’s personalities. I think everyone is unique to their own personality but I also think that perhaps it’s their other traits that factor into generalities that tend to be made. I mean, it was a good read, but annoying nonetheless.
ReplyDeleteI do not completely agree with what Greene implements in his idea. For example, I did not like how he said, “Someone who is always cheerful, pleasant and eager to help most often is concealing a lot of hidden aggression, resentment, anger” because that is a huge generalization of personality traits that is far from the truth. The opposite correlations he utilizes are not accurate, in my opinion. I do not think just because someone who is a generally “cheerful, pleasant” and helpful person, means that they are the complete opposite inside. There are people in this world that are genuinely kind and joyful or actually shy and modest like this because it is their belief, or just because they want to. There is nothing wrong with that, and there shouldn’t be assumptions and judgments attached to them.
Moving on, I do believe everyone has a “dark side” but I do not believe it necessarily means that it’s an evil or negative side. The way in which Greene presented his idea with examples of personality types alludes to the negative connotation that is attached to “dark.” Just because something is dark, does not mean it is automatically classified as bad or evil, it is just unrevealed, and unknown. But I’ve realized that most people are afraid of the unknown, thus being afraid of the dark (not intended to be a generalization). For example, when Greene said “every person has a dark side, like the moon” it does not mean that the dark side of the moon is deadly or evil. It’s just a side that we do not see with our eyes that people tend to automatically assume is different in qualities and aspects from the viewed side of the moon. But it’s not. Maybe this assumption that something that is dark is evil and bad comes from judgments, but judgments are almost never true. I think the dark side of a person could be a part of them that is simply hidden and kept unknown from society just because they want to not because it’s a necessarily frowned upon aspect. It’s called privacy.
I admit, I do have a “dark side.” That does not mean I secretly plot to kill everyone or anything, it just means I have a part of me that I keep in the shadows because I want to. I don’t want everyone to know who I am not because I have something to hide, but because I like it that way. I like to share certain things with people and to keep others concealed from them. I like it because I know nobody will comprehend this other side of me. No offense, but judgments are too quick to be made and I’d rather not be judged on a part of me that nobody can understand. All of you guys would be quite surprised about my “unknown” side because a lot of you perceive me as a monotone, emotionless, boring person, but in reality, there’s more, I just don’t want to reveal it because it’s hard to get a hold of. Don’t worry, like I said, it’s not like I plan on doing evil things, haha.
Alex N- hahaha, you're article was meandering and completely you! However, I disagree on how you said people stop caring at a certain age. I think everyone cares, age doesn't stop that, because it is more than what people see as politically correct, it is what people personally view as acceptable.
ReplyDeleteSimon- I'm pretty sure the author was male... lol! Either way, I enjoyed your blog, and your disagreement with Greene. "I found Greene’s assertions to be too aggressive and too general." I support you in that sentence, however, I feel that Greene's argument held much truth that needed that passion.
KTG- Not only is your writing enjoyable, but it's insightful. I love how you get your ideas across the table with metaphors and spunk ;) I also, agree with you, and for some reason I think your dark side must explain your obsession with poop.
First and foremost, I actually loved the piece. I basically agreed with everything he had to say with the help of my group. Though he focuses on 'the dark side', I agree more with there's something in everyone that we hide. Maegan and I were talking about the book Art of Seduction earlier this month, actually, and she noted that it wasa great book regardless of the topic which made me want to read it, strangely enough. The selection that we read in class covers a topic that I've actually been thinking about lately and I love that it helped me make a concrete opinion over the whole thing. Saying that, Bunj - can I borrow this book? :)
ReplyDeleteWith the quote mentioned above discussing that pimps and such are more genuine in a sense for their ability to embrace their darker side rather than hiding it, I disagree. Just becuase their able to recognize their dark side doesn't make them an enjoyable person, it just means that's them - they're dark. During the group discussions on the final day, Deanna came up with such a valid point that stunned all three of us - each 'side' that we have is just an aspect of our personality. Personally, I don't have the dark side that has been defined to such an extreme. Sure, I get angered and I have thoughts of displeasant actions to people I'm not too fond of, but that's just part of my personality - I'm short-tempered; my apologies for trailing off.
A Time to Kill is a great movie and for those who haven't seen it, I strongly recommend it. A little background - a black daughter is walking home with groceries alone, and two while males (drunk) drive along side of her and throw cans at her before they rape her, urinate on her and try to hang her (her weight allows the branch to break, and ruin her chances of ever having kids. In this situation, would Greene be saying that because those two white males were able to embrace their 'dark side' and raped this young woman, they're genuine and okay? Hate it, every aspect of that idea.
I was able to agree with Greene, for the most part, and build my own conclusion until his quote is relating pimps to genuinity. Having different sides is what makes us and it's all about perspective of right and wrong, good and bad and so on. Greene was able to build the bastion (I FINALLY USED THIS WORD IN A SENTENCE, BUNJ!!!) of my thoughts over the dark sides of people and embracing it determines characteristics of people, but after reading more examples of his ideas leads me to take the road less traveled by, well by Greene.
Deanna - I never really noticed the extent of your diction and how I really hear you through it. I love that you're so strongly opinionated and, to be honest, I've seen such a different you this year than I have during any other year - embracing a new side! Just kidding, but I really do enjoy reading your responses - they always make me think more and open up new perspectives of the blog!
ReplyDeleteFor clarification purposes, I must dictate my own personal definition of dark. I believe “Dark” not to be that moment of hatred you feel for another after you, yourself, were degraded. Dark is not being gay. Dark is not defending yourself. Those qualities are just what make us human. Rather, dark is much more evil. A permanent evil mark on one’s soul that cause him/her to horrendous act without feeling sorry for doing them. Take for instance the abusive husband that chooses to pound on his wife’s wife as a lame attempt to feel good about himself. He’s constant abuse is a leeway into understanding this dark, dark man. He feeds off of this abuse. He revels in the atrocity of his crime.
ReplyDeleteThose little wicked thing we choose not to say or do are the not the mark of a hidden “dark person”, but rather is a weak attempt to be good and reject one’s usual human tendencies. The rejecting of these ideas is the very thing that keeps us from being dark. Confused? Well, that me give you an example. Say that you are harmlessly walking in the hallways of this beautiful high school when this fat aggressive girl walks right into and causes you to drop all your Current Events. Then instead of saying “Sorry”, she mumbles “Watch your way, bitch!” That Swiss army knife is looking good, right? But you do not shank her. Instead, in your head you spew some vile directed at her and walk away. How is that dark? Instead of physically harming this chick, you decided to blow off some stem by cursing her out in your head. I have about a million thoughts a day (“I am gonna give her a piece of my mind” or “I’m gonna kill him”), do you know about what percentage of these thoughts become actions? I would guesstimate less than fifteen percent. The denial of ones dark side is as close as anyone is going to get to being “good”.
There are not many people that are dark (except for rapist and serial killers and the likes that truly are just evil and enjoy being that way). Instead there are a lot of people who just are not as bright as angel, per say. I do not think I, or anyone I know for that matter, have a dark side but rather just a “gray” side. This “gray” side involves the normal uncontrollable thoughts and reactions that enter our mind on a day to day bias. Thinking impure thoughts is not the same as doing them. No one can argue that. One can not be judged for these thoughts because it is not necessary that these thought turn into action. The same goes for the gray things we hide. We hide to be perfect and be accepted. That hiding, or rather choice to attempt to hide, is the only thing that keeps one from falling from the gray side into the dark.
Part One
ReplyDeleteI disagree with most points Greene has made in his piece The Dark Side. While some of the points made make some broad, logical sense, his views for the most part seem untrue and convoluted to me. I agree that people can have many aspects to their personality (a fact Greene never actually asserts, one I personally believe and can be implied by the text), but at the same time, I disagree with his notions of “dark sides” and the implications they have on personality and actions. The article’s initial, broad ideas were akin to my beliefs, but after the first few lines, the essay began to falter in level of agreement/ respect I gave it. The ideas expressed are largely close-minded, presenting ideas with no viable detail or logic that would give me reason to sympathize with any of the messages.
One aspect that I particularly disagreed with was the notion that every person is secretly devoted to the issues they so openly, and vehemently, oppose. Not only does this idea hold no logical sense, it presents a harshly over cynical view of the human race. How can one honestly believe that every act a person commits is a lie, that, as a result of this assumption, every action of any given person is a façade or lie based on self interest? I don’t consider myself a cynic in any aspect, and this idea that they world is just a sphere full of charlatans sparked my protest. Sure, sometimes a person hides their true motives or commits an act they don’t wholeheartedly support, but this is certainly not true for every single action or decision of any given human being. For example, Greene gave the example of a person “preaching vociferously against homosexuality” and their secret desires to be a homosexual. Not only is this example overly extreme it makes little to no sense. How can every opinion expressed by an individual contradict their actual beliefs? And if this is the case, how can the spirit of the individual at all prosper? If the entirety of humanity is lying about their every motive and opinion, there can be no clear indicator of any opinion; there is no true evidence that what they express actually contradicts their beliefs. I think the author is a victim of a personal incident that has scarred him and left him a cynic, clouding his views and producing an opinion that can only ring true in the most cynical of minds.
Part Two
ReplyDeleteIt is true that each individual has “another side”, though I don’t necessarily agree with that particular description. Every individual has myriad of personality traits, and can never truly express each one to each person they come across. Just because I appear snappy or spiteful one day doesn’t mean I should be defined as a spiteful, cruel person. Sure, there are qualities that some may consider “dark”, but they are natural facets of the human experience. The feelings that are considered dark don’t create a secret inherent “dark side” to a person. An individual can’t be explained by any given set of traits, no one is perfect and no set of traits can be expressed at all times. The conventional definition of a dark side is one that I cannot honestly agree with, there are no set traits that one can secretly keep while displaying something else, if so, we’d be living in a world of Sybils.
The idea of “good and bad” and “dark sides” cannot be clearly defined. One person’s right may be another person’s wrong, one person may be the most passionate person in the world about a topic that another is completely apathetic about. Human experience is based on perspective and the contemplation and sharing of it. I believe that no one makes a decision thinking that they are making a wrong decision. Sure, the murderer may “know” that killing is socially incorrect, but he innately convinces himself that it is right. A person doesn’t act thinking they are committing an act that is wrong. In my opinion, a mind inherently does what it thinks is right, regardless of societal standards or others opinions. While these factors may influence a person’s actions, they don’t define them; in the end it comes down to personal choice and conviction.
So, as far as the conventional definition of “dark side” goes, I do have one, every person has one. As far as my own beliefs go, I don’t believe that every person has a dark side and that they secretly hide self-opposing viewpoints. I experience jealousy, lust, selfishness, the same as everyone else does, but does that define my “dark side”? I think not, these traits make up who I am and there are no spilt personalities to who I am; I am who I am and there is no cut and dry character split.
Alix: I agree with what you said about how some people hide parts of themselves because of things they’ve experienced. I bought this up in our circle when we were doing the listening exercise. While others said that as a child, people decide what they’re going to expose about themselves, I shared my opinion on acting certain ways and sharing certain personality traits because of past experiences. I’m glad you brought that up.
ReplyDeleteIt took me quite some time to collect my thoughts and form an opinion on The Dark Side by Robert Greene. During “the Last Word” exercise, I found a few examples from the text to talk about during my two minutes, but my thoughts were hardly opinions; I cited a few examples and stated whether I agreed or disagreed with them, but I couldn’t conjure up the “why.” I listened to the rest of my group’s opinions and was jealous of their certainty of their answers. I thought about the existence of a “dark side” for the rest of the day, but my efforts were fruitless; still nothing.
ReplyDeleteIt must have been something that someone said during our in-class discussion, which triggered my revelation. I finally understood! “Dark sides” do not exist because humans are far too complex to have only one hidden component of their personalities. Here’s my theory: nobody truly knows themselves until they are faced with love, pain, struggle, victory, happiness, or sorrow because all of these experiences change us in some way or another, and bring out different dimensions of our character.
For instance, love can change a person in infinite ways. I’ve been talking to a new boy lately, and he almost has me convinced that love is real, and not a figment of the imagination (which I whole-heartedly believed it was a few weeks ago.) I’m not saying that I’m in love with him, because that’s completely untrue, but he has me flirting with the idea that maybe one day I will be. Anyway, before this started I’ll admit I was a cynic. If a guy told me I was beautiful, I would probably have stared him straight in the eyes and said, “Cut the bullshit.” However, when “new guy” told me I was beautiful, it was as if the heavens opened up and angels started singing a hymn. In short, it took all of this to say that by experiencing love, I was changed and my romantic cynicism turned into sappy vulnerability. I never would have known that my sappy vulnerability existed if it weren’t for “new guy.” He has made me experience something I never have before, and I am grateful that he introduced me to a new side of myself.
Keeping with my theory, I do not believe that I have a dark side because all of the aspects of my personality have manifested themselves for different reasons, and I haven’t discovered the hidden parts of my personality yet. Maybe when I am much older, sixty or seventy or so, and have found all of the facets of my personality, I will be able to label them as “good” and “bad” and separate the “bad” traits into the “Dark Side” category.
Kristie: I’m glad to see that SOMEONE feels the say way as I do about the original piece by Greene that we read. However, when you got the topic about the pimps, you said that you feel the opposite of Greene. Then why do you think we are drawn to the idea of them?
ReplyDeleteKaitlin - I agree with your first paragraph and I would wasn't thinking about how confidence is what makes them attractive - so thanks! And by the way, I feel the same way about learning in that way - being in school and being told things, not interesting. But being out there and living the lessons, I'd love it and I sure as hell want to do it. Then your second paragrah about everyone having a dark side - I agree with that too but I guess I defined the dark side as being so much more dark, but I see the thoughts of horrible things are counted as that too.
ReplyDeleteGreene’s piece, The Dark Side, explains the notion that everyone has a dark mysterious side to their personality and each and every person has these sides, which all include the desire to do "the wrong" thing. Green’s definition of a dark side in people is far too cut and dry, and I consider the topic of having a “dark side” to be extremely more complex then he seemed to put it in the piece. Even though I agreed with some parts throughout, I cannot say that I actually agree 100% because of the numerous examples that Greene explained with so much confidence; he acted as though there was no exceptions in the dark side of certain people. Overall I enjoyed the piece because it made me think about the things people hide behind the persona they promote to the world, and most of all it allowed me to consider the question “do I have a dark side?”
ReplyDeleteTo consider if I have a dark side or not, I must first try to explain my definition of a “dark side,” which is slightly different than what Greene explained in his opinion. Now Greene commented on the dark side to be the side that we do not demonstrate to society, and was actually the genuine slightly more sinister self that has the desire to do “wrong things.” In my analysis, though very similar to Greene’s, differs on how black and white the conditions are. There are many permeated holes in his argument, such as Greene implying that there is no possibility of someone just being themselves all of the time, which I believe is impossible. All people always do not have to have that dark evilness clawing inside them, there must be someone out there that has to just be genuinely nice or caring for others. Now I understand these nice people will have their off days of anger but I do not believe this is their “dark side” appearing but just aspects of their personality showing through. I can’t see Gandhi wanting to become a pimp or hustler; it doesn’t seem possible to me that everyone can have these selfish evil mentalities behind their personalities.
Now that I have defined what a dark side is, I can judge whether or not I have a dark side. And now that I have thought about it, I believe I do have a dark side. Don’t worry the dark side I am talking about, it does not involve becoming a serial killer, but there is a part of me that sometimes wants to do things that I wouldn’t dare say or do in reality. There is this part of me that will always want to break away from the constraint of society, and live my life differently, freely. I also have to tame my dark side when I see a throng of “gangsters” blocking the path to my class and have to reframe from completely freaking out on them, and my occasional façade towards some people definitely adds to my dark side. Now I’m sure that the dark side that I explained is similar to many other AP kids in Oakcrest, and I do not feel ashamed of it, because I believe it is just a common addition to making me normal (I hope).
Manar: "Dark side" has a negative connotation... and I don't believe our other side is always negative.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you that Greene's "dark side" has many negative connotations, ones that don't necessarily correspond to a person's true "other side". However, if a person's other side isn't necessarily a dark one, why even define their other side as, well, another side? Why do people have to be labeled according to their sides? Humans are a complex species and they need not be defined by a simple dichotomy of "sides" or "personalities". These other sides blend together to create one unique being, just because a particular "side" isn't presented doesn't mean it isn'y a part of a person's general pesona.
Deanna
ReplyDelete“I felt Greene’s “The Dark Side” was forced.”
You made a strong statement, which I can’t say I agree with. However, you didn’t back it up. You explained what you ment by forced, but you didn’t give examples of how it was forced.
Stephanie
“the last part of the piece ended with someone trying to seduce their audience into thinking his book was bad but it caused more copies to be bought because it sparked interest”
I agree with you one hundred percent. This was my favorite part of the article as well, and I’m sure many others. The funny thing is I don’t agree with some of what Greene said as well, but I want to read the book.
Sarah
“. As soon as I got home, I looked up his blog and was able to find some sections from The Art of Seduction. (I’m feeling like a major nerd for admitting that, but I wouldn’t want me any other way.)”
This is why we love you. I also liked your example of the “bad boy”. In our class someone said every girl likes to be abused or taken advantage of, something to that nature.
P.S. If you love philosophy that’s what you should take this summer!!
Kale
ReplyDeleteWhen I read The Dark Side I felt something was off about it, but I didn’t know what I was feeling. And now that you mention that the article was forced, I realized that I too felt the same way.
“But just because, if you happen to see that person at home, he/she is bitter and angry does not mean this is his/her ‘dark side.’ It is simply another aspect of their personality.” Although I agree that people have many traits that describe their personalities, I think that you have misinterpreted Greene’s words. I don’t think Greene is saying, “What you don’t see is their dark side.” I think, instead, that Greene is saying, “Their dark side is what they don’t want you to see.” Kelsey’s dark side isn’t “every part of her” you don’t know. Her dark side is every part of her she doesn’t want you to know.
Stephanie
“She described the feeling as ‘a rush’ and said that as much as she liked doing everything the right way she felt a kind of “attraction” to being a little bad every now and again.” I would not consider her bad side, her dark side. If this girl is to match Greene’s examples, she would have to be a bad girl who does good things, when in fact, based on your descriptions, she seems like a good girl doing bad things.
“However, my definition of a “dark side” seems to be different than the one that Greene discusses.” What is your definition?
Kristen
“It reverts to honesty, which I value very highly, and therefore I don't want to be dishonest and hide everything.” To be honest, I don’t think everyone is honest all the time, and I don’t think hiding a personal trait as a defense mechanism is in violation of honesty. If people say you have a dark side, I don’t think they’re calling you dishonest. Their accusations do not imply that they think you are a liar, but instead that you are withholding the truth. A person with a dark side is a person who is withholding the truth. For example, Green writes, “Someone who is always cheerful, pleasant and eager to help most often is concealing a lot of hidden aggression, resentment, anger.”
Gwen - I wanted to answer your questions :) So the first question of why their 'dark side' is the exact opposite, or has to be, of what they express - I don't think it does. As my group has discovered, and I'm sure many others, there's many sides of a personality and the 'dark side' is just one, not being so cut and dry with the dark side and the light side. With that said, the 'dark side' doesn't have to be who they hide entirely. Deanna made a comment in class that if a person embraces their dark side, that's just who they are. Once you embrace something, it's no longer hidden. I'm sure you get angry, I don't think a person can remain sane always happy, so even that could be counted as a dark side and people always embrace their anger which means it's no longer hidden.
ReplyDeleteTaking a more cynical approach human nature, I agreed with the article. “People present to society the side of their personality they want to be seen.” Continuing to read this paragraph and note the key points such as defense mechanism and covering up the opposite really sparked my attention to the article. I have always grown up hiding my thoughts, feelings and opinions as a defense mechanism to hide my weaknesses. Sports began to embed the idea of weakness into my brain. For example, my coach always told me, “If the competition knows your weaknesses, or can sense your fear, they have beaten you. Whether you are hurting or scared, you must never show it.” When children are young they tend to listen to every demand or piece of information they are given. This piece of information has, and forever will be embedded into my brain.
ReplyDeleteAn important part of someone’s ‘dark side’, is recognizing that there is another side to everyone that may not be showing every time communication with the person occurs. In the movie Mean Girls, Regina tells a girl she likes her skirt and as soon as the girl walks away she makes a comment on how ugly the skirt really is. In the example, Regina reveals her dark side, but in real life most people would just think about saying that when they do not truly have the guts to do so. Eventually, the dark side has to be revealed. In the passage, the author notes the ways of discovering when it really comes out. I often have problems revealing myself and my other side that is hidden like the other side of the moon. Glimpses of my other side comes out depending on the situation, but I am usually blind when this happens. Emotions get the best of me, and I do not even realize what is going on. If I can not see or understand it in myself, how can I see it in others?
Bunje brought up a good point in class about the listening exercises. Often times when we listen to people we care too much or not enough about the person to hear what they are really trying to say. The same could be said with personalities. When we care too much we are blinded by the negative personality or dark side that we are not use to seeing. When that comes out we are in disbelief and have a rough time adjusting to who they really are. The opposite is if we don’t care enough. When we do not pay attention to details because we do not care, we are blinded and completely see a one sided person without trying to understand the true person. Balancing between the two will help a person begin to understand another person.
I do have dark side. Thoughts, actions and opinions are frequently kept to myself. My opinions are just that; my opinions. Most are kept to myself which leaves a mysterious feeling when I talk to people. Growing up I have been told my opinions do not matter, or that they are “stupid.” Knowing I have a dark side does not mean I know exactly what is in the dark side. Revealing myself to others is something I rarely do. The problem is that I do not know exactly what is hidden in my dark side and if I do not know, I can not reveal it. I am nervous to find out, but when the circumstance arrises I hope I will be able to find myself, and show others what I am capable of.
Reading this article sparked my interest in reading other people’s dark sides. It also brought to my attention that “we all have this dark side,” and I am not alone in trying to figure out all aspects of my personality, which hopefully will not be much of a mask anymore.
Kaitlin - LOL at the fact my response to you answers the question I didn't even read in your response to me until just now. <3
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteTo Alex N:
ReplyDeleteI have to disagree with you. People never stop caring. We are just too human, therefore too stubborn to ever just say “I give up on looking good”. I believe that we are always attempting to “better” ourselves or at least look like we are trying. No matter how racist an old person is I doubt he/she would go and say prejudice comments in a mixed company ( he/she probably drone on about to people he/she or comfortable with and are not afraid will judge) Why? Because he/she does not want to be known as the old geezer that doesn’t like Asians, blacks, or Mexicans.
To Kristie A.
I was really intrigued by your blog. It opened up a lot of other things for me to think. And now my head hurts, thanks Kristie (she says sarcastically). Okay, now to actually talk about your blog. I automatically took a liking to your blog. Like you I believe that one’s dark side ( or as I call it their “gray” side) is uncontrollable and just apart of who they are. You just have to know when you are deviling into darker grounds.
To Taylor:
You are too cute (“It’s human nature to serve our personalities sunny side up to people when we first meet them.”) I agree with you on your point that we hid because of our insecurities sometimes. High School is the prime example. How many people do you actually think believe half of the garbage that comes out of their mouths?
To all who pointed out that I labeled Greene a female:
ReplyDeleteHaha. Obviously, I was pointing out a flaw in Greene's argument. People who are males, are, in reality, females!
To be honest, I knew he was a male, but I didn't catch my incorrect pronoun usage. Whoops.
Jourdan: I liked your cookie jar similie and the enjoyment you described in reading a passage that has left a particularly tasteful "aftertaste". In regards to your opinion on the subject, I agree that one can have a "dark side" that is particularly evil. The term "dark side" is one that is so connotatively negative that I don't think it should have been the title of the article. I also agree with your questioning of the complexity of a "side" and the insuffiecient amount of actual character expressed by the phrase.
ReplyDeleteThis past week I took a personality test developed by the famous psychiatrist, and co-worker of Sigmund Freud, Carl Jung. After I took it, I received a pretty extensive, and accurate, personality evaluation. One of the biggest aspects of my personality is that internally almost all my thoughts are based on my intuition. Meaning most of my thoughts and beliefs, questions and answers, come from my feelings. Externally, however, I'm organized, logical, and systematic. I do this so my actions and my expressions of thought seem more rational to the people around me, rather than if I acted like I thought, based on my feelings. Is this a dark side, as Greene would define it? Do I secretly want to let go of everything, my logic, rationality, and responsibility? Greene defines a person's dark side as a part of someone's personality that is always kept hidden, that actually is a total contradiction of what they show the world. My external behavior is not a defense mechanism I've developed to keep my internal intuition hidden. I consider my intuition to be a gift, but without the systematic execution of my thoughts I wouldn't make much sense. I understand my thoughts, but it takes someone very special to be able to understand me when I share my thoughts right off the top of my head, without planning. My intuitive thought processes and systematic execution are not contradictions, but complements. I live in a state of duality, but my two sides work together. My intuition isn't kept hidden, in fact it shows in almost everything I do, you just have to be able to see past the surface of my actions and figure out their origins.
ReplyDeleteCoincidentally, we're going over the personality chapter in AP Psychology. Something we just learned about are Freud's three components of personality. The base level component is the id. The id is where our instinctive, animalistic urges come from. When we experience sudden, strong emotion an urge originating from the id often comes up, such as wanting to punch someone in the face, but our ego, the decision making component of our personalities, and our superego, the moral part of our personalities, take over and, hopefully, stop us from punching that person. Is the id what Greene considers our dark side? What about when we dwell on these urges from the id for longer than a few seconds, and they start to become wishes. Is that when we know we have a dark side? Speaking personally, I know there are things about myself that I keep hidden from most people. We aren't meant to share everything with everyone. Who could? But what I do show the world doesn't generally contradict something I keep buried inside of me in an attempt to keep my insecurities hidden.
We do have dark sides, but not as Greene thinks of them. Our dark sides aren't contradictions, but balances. One side is the yin, the other the yang. Just like I am internally intuitive and externally systematic, everyone has something hard to see that keeps them in order. When we embrace our dark side, we'll be able to reach our full potential.
I thought the writing was good. It was interesting how Greene tied in his concept with his Seduction book, as he begins with a captivating sentence and then informally transitions into detailing his concept prior to relating it to his Seduction book. He informality aids my understanding of the topic as I felt Greene was speaking to me. Sometimes, an informal tone can detract from the piece’s value, but in this case, it does not as his examples are short, sweet, and informal. Despite the fact that the informality helped me understand the paper, I still had a difficult time understanding certain parts of it, such as when he writes, “In power of war, your strategies go astray. In seduction, you miss the richest opportunities for stirring the transgressive and taboo.”
ReplyDeleteI also had a difficult time agreeing with Greene. I found Greene’s assertions to be too aggressive and too general. How is it possible that ALL people have a dark side? Does not one person in the entire world express himself or herself truly and purely? How can all people who preach against homosexuality be homosexuals? Greene suggests that a dark side can imply a hidden side or an evil side, and this I agree, but I find it unlikely that all dark sides result from “a lot of insecurities, weaknesses.” Personally, I have a dark side not because they hide my insecurities and weaknesses, but because they are unacceptable in society. My dark side is not a defense mechanism, but a self-control mechanism. I’m not afraid of acting myself and getting ridiculed; I’m afraid of acting myself and alienating myself, for alienation would limit my opportunities for success.
What children find as weaknesses in themselves may not necessarily remain weaknesses as they grow older—children mature and develop new perceptions of their self-image—and as a result, the dark sides, if still present, can no longer be used for hiding weaknesses, and must be used for something else. For example, a young boy develops a dark side to hide his tears as a child as a defense mechanism. But later, when we grows up, he continues to hide his tears not because he will get teased for them, but because he must display strength to strengthen others or because he has become accustomed to hiding his tears.
There are many stories of people who hide certain aspects of themselves when they no longer need to because they have done so for so long and have become accustomed to it. Take for example, Jews in hiding during World War II. Some, even after the war was over and the danger was gone, continued to hide religious aspects of themselves out of habit. This brings up another point. Many Jews did not learn to hide their religion from childhood on, but instead learned to do so at later stage in life. The fabrication of a dark side to hide a characteristic—whether occurring at five years old or fifty years old—does not occur in childhood but when the environment threatens to attack the characteristic or when self-control is needed. Sometimes, however, people don’t even join the dark side.
Stephen W. -I took a personality test developed by the famous psychiatrist, and co-worker of Sigmund Freud, Carl Jung. After I took it, I received a pretty extensive, and accurate, personality evaluation.
ReplyDeleteI took it too!!! Lol & I took it in 8th grade, saved the results and retook it midway this year and though there were a lot of similarities, I realized many changes, we change or grow up to learn and develop sides or eliminate some... therefore nothing is set in stone in our personality or dark side to always be hidden...
Lucas: I agree completely with your belief that Greene was "whining". When I read your post, I could automatically understand where you were coming from when you made this assertion, a factor that you explained in your post and I briefly touched on in mine. I enjoyed your witty examples that disprove Greene's theory and I can concur taht that section of the article was the one that irked me most as well.
ReplyDeleteDeanna:
ReplyDelete“Secondly, I vehemently do not believe that everyone has a dark side. The idea is preposterous.”
As we both stated in class, everyone having a dark side also is outrageous to think. All the figure in the world such as Gandhi and Mother Teresa having a dark side seems almost comical because the “dark side” that Greene explains always has a negative connotation, but I believe that the other side of people is just aspects of their personality not their “dark side.”
Maryam:
Honestly, I found this piece quite annoying. It bothered me how Greene was so sure that his personality types about people apply to everyone.
I whole heartedly agree with you, the way Greene makes every example and person in the paper seem undeniable and tries to produce the idea that all people will hide a different aspect of their personality from the world. Like the jock example that Greene gives which explains that any person who portrays a muscle-bound bully is actually the opposite on the inside. To say something like that with not even adding a sign that there are exception was very annoying to me as well.
Paola:
“a weakness that would make you seem vulnerable and in some cases, useless.”
I like how you put the “dark side” that Greene explains. Instead of a side that just exists with rage or evilness you explain it as a vulnerable part of the person which really says what I was trying to explain. The dark side of a person doesn’t literally mean “dark” but could just mean the weakness that is rendered useless by the society and the personality that is shown to it. It makes me rethink the aspect of having a “dark side” more than just the evil and bad thoughts that a person would sometimes have.
What is this Dark Side? During those group sessions in class, I perceived my group members associated the meaning of it to the societal accepted ‘bad’ characters, actions etc. The evil and immorality. Like serial killers and murders. However after rereading the piece after much befuddlement of the discussion in class I believe Greene was talking about hidden sides. Sides that may be just as bad as the serial killers or something as harmless as ‘concealing a lot of shyness and frailty’.
ReplyDeleteThe article was quite intriguing for its purpose to state a fact people avoid or ignore. I cannot say that people tend to show all of their sides all of the time then I, myself, would contradict it. And I’m pretty sure many others would too. It just seems impossible to show all of your sides consistently. Aren’t we different around different groups of people? To your friends you probably come close to showing almost all of it, but to strangers you tend to hide much more. Don’t we hold back feelings when situations arises? Don’t we act like we care when deep down we really despise the person, or think the complete opposite of what they say or do? I agree with his idea the “dark side”- the hidden side because it’s something I can relate to.
Acquaintances would call me an angel, because I’m not outspoken, I seem to obey the authorities and I care to excel in school. This is very socially accepted, ’goody two shoes’ in society. But in reality, deep down inside sometimes I just want to explode. What? Gasp! Pooja, being a rebel? Sadly it’s true. I tend to lose patience easily. For something I don’t approve of or I strongly resent, I curse endlessly in my head, sometimes. The same with frustration. I bottle these negative emotions and keep them this way, most likely to keep from trouble and it’s a side I’m not willing to share. Unless I really need to vent. :]
However there are parts I completely disagree with Greene. He makes it seem as if we always act the opposite, like behind every action there is an opposite reaction. Haha, Newton’s law of motion does not apply here. Sometimes at the moment, what you truly feel inside can be shown and that feeling doesn’t have to be a negative side. Say you win a game, of course you will show that sense of pride and accomplishment by patting your team members in the back. You aren’t going to feel anything but that because your hard work has paid off. It’s not like our ‘dark side’ is always lurking inside of us. Everything basically depends on circumstances and how we allow ourselves to act on it.
It basically comes down to perception just like Justin said. We all may be willing to do this ‘wrong thing’, but would my ‘wrong ’ be perceived as wrong in the eyes of the other? Maybe we’re drawn to this because we all want change from time to time. We’re aware of the societal good and bad, but nobody can draw a fine line on it and it varies to one person to the next. And we can’t read the minds of others so we can’t postulate Greene’s points as true. But one thing is true, that we are all humans whether we like it or not and that much of what I said does not relate to you in anyway or make any sense (which I apologize).
Sarah C – “If someone wants to hide something about themselves, it’s their business. Nobody absolutely needs to know everything about everyone.”
ReplyDeleteI wrote something similar to this in my blog, and I agree. I don’t think anyone has the right to poke around into other people’s business just to see their “dark side.” Chances are they won’t even see what they want, they’ll just see one thing and automatically will assume that they found the “dark side.” So I absolutely agree with you here Sarah, but I must say I disagree with a few things in your blog, but that’s not as important.
Lucas S – “Just because SOME people who act out against something secretly want it doesn’t mean everyone does.”
I agreed with practically everything in your blog, but this was a point I had not mentioned in my blog that I simply overlooked but would have said something similar to you about. Anyways, I agree because I think Greene makes too many generalities about perhaps his observations. Maybe he bases his theories on his observations solely and decides to generalize the human population on them. Like you said, he seems like he’s just whining.
Manar – I always love reading your blogs because they have so much of your wonderful and beautiful personality in them. We pretty much had the same points about the blog, except yours was written in an entertaining way, while mine was just straight forward. But overall, we had very similar views about the articles and the “dark side” in general.
Gwen C:
ReplyDeleteI thought it was interesting that you thought we will eventually show all the parts of our "dark sides."
"I believe that in these situations, everybody is able to reveal a part of themselves that they may not in everyday life."
Different situations evoke different emotions, and in turn, different reactions. I can definitely see the validity in this side of the argument.
Deanna: I always read your blogs because they’re extremely thought provoking and make me learn a lot more about life. Anyway, I completely agree with you! People are indefinable and the quote you cited from the reading is false. If people could be limited by definitions, the words used to describe them would become more and more shallow until there were no words to use at all. Also, if someone adamantly hates something, there is no way they’re secretly wishing they felt oppositely. If they did feel that way, they obviously wouldn’t be so inflexible toward the topic in the first place. People aren’t as complicated as everyone makes them out to be.
ReplyDeleteKristen:
Greene's writing was contradictory to me, though I did enjoy it. He said that everyone has a dark side, and that we reveal only what we want to be seen. Then he goes on to say that we protest against what we really want.
At first, I didn’t see Greene’s opinion this way, but after reading your post I agree. It’s almost as if he is pushing his view on the audience, but really doesn’t know what he’s thinking at all. I also value honestly, and do not appreciate that Greene thinks he knows everything by telling people that they really don’t believe in what they say they believe in. How does he know anyway!? Anyway, I really liked your blog and agree with most of your views. :-)
Kaitlin:
When I first started to read your blog, I thought, “There is no way I’m going to be able to relate to this!” However, you surprised me. After I read your first paragraph about wanting to quit school, travel, and learn the unconventional way, I forgot about my previous opinions and continued with an open mind. You made valid points, especially about guys, girls, and confidence, and the difference between the connotations of “bad” and “evil.” My mind was changed a little bit after reading your blog, so I wanted to thank you for making me learn something today. :-)
I’ve been thinking a lot about Robert Greene’s article for the past twenty-four hours now, and how surprisingly pulled me in and intrigued me. During the class discussion, I was very enthusiastic on the subject, not afraid to express my opinions to the class. “The Dark Side”, personally, was a complete eye-opener and scarily accurate. It also questioned by own personality. Am I a genuine person? Or am I a ‘Stepford’ wife? Like you Bunje, I was deeply captivated by the witty and memorable metaphor in the piece: "We would rather align ourselves with angels, than the primates we are actually descended from.” It could not be any more truthful. What Green is conveying is that we all aim to be something higher, something acceptable, when we’re just trying to be something we’re not. This metaphor seems to compare religion with being a socially acceptable thing, while comparing evolution to something that isn’t so accepted, yet is as real as global warming. Yet, are we concealing evolution because it’s “dark”? Surely, to the social world, it’s viewed as a dark and sinful thought. But what about the thinker himself? Does he punish his own thoughts? A Christian gay man may conceal his interests for the sake of social acceptance, but does he think his true identity is “dark”? The connotation of “dark” automatically associates itself with negative words, such as evil, sinful, and morally wrong. That’s why I just don’t like this whole “dark side” classification. The gay man doesn’t see his gayness as “evil”; he quite enjoys it, actually. Yet, the rest of society classifies gayness as “evil”, and thus the gay man will conceal his persona in order to prevent social suicide. Is the world just this huge allusion to Mean Girls?
ReplyDeleteAs much as I tried to deny it, I really do have this “dark side”. Yet, I feel as though a Stars Wars reference doesn’t adequately justify the person I am hiding beneath my public persona. In Star Wars, “The Dark Side” is related strictly to evil: Darth Vader, to be exact. I don’t believe I’m evil, per say. In fact, I believe I’m quite the opposite.
Yoda once said that “Fear is the path to the dark side”. This quote can be interpreted in two main ways. First, one could assume that Yoda is saying that when you’re scared, you’ll collapse from pressure and end up doing evil things. My interpretation, on the other hand, is much more complex. My explanation of “the dark side” is someone’s concealment of their true personality as a result of fear of social denial. Fear has led us to hiding who we really are by masking ourselves with a façade. Without fear, our “dark side” wouldn’t be our “dark side”. It would be our only side. See what I mean? No doubt, I have a dark side. But I don’t call it a dark side in the terms of “evil”. I call it my “dark side” because it is concealed; it’s tightly packed in a dark and cramped box.
True fact: I have numerously imagined punching someone in the face. Another true fact: I would never, in a million years, hurt an ant. My self control and natural instinct to want to be socially acceptable stops me from doing such a vulgar action. As you mentioned in the blog, we admire those murderers and “psychos” because of their genuineness; they reveal their “dark side” with absolutely no self control. Maybe we all wish were all that genuine. Maybe we all wish to admit that our thoughts, a part of the “dark side” or not, are inevitable. And maybe, despite of it all, “the dark side” will once be accepted as the bright side.
Sarah C:
ReplyDelete"I know some people, someone in particular who wears their evil side on their sleeve for everyone to see. Everyone can tell, just from one conversation with this person, that something’s off. They get an overall bad vibe."
I think what Greene was saying in his blog was that everyone has an opposite side to what they show. So whoever it is you're talking about that shows their evil side, according to Greene, is actually just using that to cover something else up about themselves. Maybe they're secretly very sensitive, and their "evil side" is a defense mechanism.
Alex N.-
ReplyDeleteI agreed with most of your blog, until I read this paragraph:
"Going back to what I said in class, old people don’t care. We live in 2010; we have a black president, yet some old people are still racist. Why? Because they don’t care. It is not considered socially acceptable to be racist, in fact in my opinion its just plain stupid. However, millions of people are, and why, because they just don’t care."
Okay, so what you're saying is that old people still conceal their "dark side" because they don't care? To me, being racist is simply a facade. We all want human rights, but by the influence from a young age and the hopes to be socially acceptable, one could resort to racism. An old person is still racist because of the influence at a young age. I definitely disagree with your reasoning. Because they don't care? If they didn't care, they would break away from this "dark side" and accept blacks.
Alix L:
ReplyDelete"I find it sort of impossible to think that everyone is just living a collective lie."
That is a little like what I said in my blog response. I think our light and dark sides work together, one in the foreground and one in the background. I don't think everyone could be living as a contradiction.
Lauren D.- Oh new boy<3 I am glad you have changed your cynical opinion! This quote really struck me, “I do not believe that I have a dark side because all of the aspects of my personality have manifested themselves for different reasons, and I haven’t discovered the hidden parts of my personality yet.” How can you know that you haven’t discovered something that is hidden? I believe everyone has another side to them, not necessarily bad, but a part they do not show to everyone. For example, you show a different side to me, than you do to your family, or someone you have just met. Circumstances do determine which side comes out but in every person there has to be different or dark sides that not everyone can see. Often times it is hard to realize when the dark sides shines through, but I am sure in some instances it has and will continue. (Which does not always have to be a bad thing.)
ReplyDeleteSimon- I disagree with some of the points that you made. It seemed as though you had more questions about the article with no information or opinion backing up your reasoning. “Personally, I have a dark side not because they hide my insecurities and weaknesses, but because they are unacceptable in society.” This quote made me think. If you have a dark side because it is not acceptable in society wouldn’t that be considered a weakness and insecurity? For example, if you are afraid of people seeing your dark side because it would not be socially acceptable aren’t you in a way afraid of others opinions? To me it is kind of the same, but could be totally different to you.
Deanna- “I believe that most of the time, society doesn’t give each individual an opportunity to show their full selves. Humans are, by nature, selfish and do not often care to see another’s personality from all angles.”
I could not agree more with this quote. In calc when we talked about this exact topic I became very interested in your hobby, but I guess you are right I never cared enough to really just ask you about it. It is not to say that I do not care, but I (like most) am too self absorbed when it comes to people outside of my inner circle. I love meeting new people, but almost pose them as a threat and display a different side to them than I would to my inner circle. As I have began to realize, the ones that do care do not often show it. At age sixteen I believe that it is possible to all have a dark side. We have not been faced with many circumstances to allow that side to come forward. Once we see it, it is up to us whether we want the world to see it. That is where the dark side comes into play.
Justin H.-
ReplyDelete"The idea of “good and bad” and “dark sides” cannot be clearly defined. One person’s right may be another person’s wrong, one person may be the most passionate person in the world about a topic that another is completely apathetic about"
I definitely agree on you there. I feel as though society's classification of inner thoughts as "the dark side" is just unfair. It may be morally wrong to one person, but it may be right to another. The Dark Side, as you stated, is open for interpretation, and cannot be clearly defined.
However, i would have to disagree with the rest of your argument. I believe his writing is very open-minded. I mean, most humans are hiding their true identities for the sake of acceptance. As cynical as it may sound, it isn't surprising.
Stephen Wright,
ReplyDelete“Meaning most of my thoughts and beliefs, questions and answers, come from my feelings. Externally, however, I'm organized, logical, and systematic. I do this so my actions and my expressions of thought seem more rational to the people around me, rather than if I acted like I thought, based on my feelings”
You really were meant for politics. To conclude with feelings but express with systematic logic is the exact personality needed for any person in government to gather people on your side with solid facts. I just thought that was interesting and not surprisingly reflected the layout of your blog, too. It’s done very logically to ensure that each person to come across your blog will understand it perfectly.
Kristie,
“With the quote mentioned above discussing that pimps and such are more genuine in a sense for their ability to embrace their darker side rather than hiding it, I disagree. Just because their able to recognize their dark side doesn't make them an enjoyable person, it just means that's them - they're dark.”
I absolutely agree with this. They may not hide their faults, but they sure aren’t good people. And though I may not agree with him fully, to align this with Greene’s theory, wouldn’t this dirt bag personality be the one that isn’t being hidden? Like if this is the personality out there for the world to see, Greene’s thoughts say, there should be a “dark side,” like a poor, and broken man inside. And no associate of his would want this side showing from their pimp, so of course he’d conceal it. So even this guy is hiding something, bit of a contradiction on Greene’s part.
Shmayvee,
“To me, a “dark side” is just the version of us that we don’t show; plain and simple.”
I completely rewrote my blog after the discussion, too. But I definitely agree with this. I hate the term “dark side,” something hidden isn’t necessarily evil and this just creates confusions. The definition of what one believes the dark side is absolutely changes how they see the article and all of these disagreements could’ve been avoided with better word choice.
Simon V:
ReplyDeleteSimon, I really liked your blog. You were cohesive and it all made sense to me. I agreed with almost everything you said. I hide traits too because it’s a better solution for many cases. I also liked how you brought up the point of people in war. I guess it all depends on circumstances, huh?
Dylan M:
“All people always do not have to have that dark evilness clawing inside them, there must be someone out there that has to just be genuinely nice or caring for others”
I completely agree with this statement :]. I don’t believe that a dark side is constantly behind a person’s actions. Then where should we begin to describe the person if we always think about their bad intentions or this ‘dark side’, well in your definition of the dark side.
Lauren D:
I completely felt the same way in your intro! I had a hard time comprehending to the reading as well as coming up with the explanations. I like your ideas in here. It really has got me thinking after the others I’ve read.
Shirley-
ReplyDelete"Furthermore, Greene writes as if he has some kind of paranoid idea that everyone is a manipulative, cut-throat b**** (like the doctor from House!). I can only agree with him half way. Life all comes down to primitive instincts. The one that I see most often is survival-of-the-fittest. Whether its pessimism or the stone-cold hard truth, everyone is out for their own good."
Before I begin, I loved the House reference. As cynical and hopeless Dr. House may be, I love him. Anyways, my blog was based upon my extreme passion and agreement towards this article, but your blog made so much sense, that you honestly made me think twice. This exerpt from your blog, in particular, had me thinking. Green was very pessimistic towards humans, as if we are deceiving and evil. I don't believe we are all evil, but we cannot blame us for our, as you said, primitive instincts. The same can be said for all species on this Earth: it's survival of the fittest. In our case, we are out for our own good. I may act happy from preventing myself from easily getting hurt. It's for my own benefit. This was a very understandable and greatly written blog. Great job! I agreed on all aspects!
Robert Greene suggests a valid argument in The Dark Side, we as human beings tend to hide certain aspects of our personality. We may not keep these traits concealed purposely, but the fact is there is something about everyone that stays hidden. I also agree that individuals who often follow the rules and obey the system long for an escape, but isn’t that human nature? No one likes the same ritualistic life; therefore our desires to break away from our old habits appear in our thoughts or “alter ego”. This alter ego is a combination of our deepest fears and anxieties; they are what we want to stay hidden from all. The reasons for this stem from many different issues but eventually return to one point, we don’t like to be judged. If the world was perfect and they’re were not gay bashers and racists maybe more people would reveal their innermost thoughts. The consequence of being judged did not exist. Sadly this is not the world we live in, from birth we encounter others who manipulate our rights from wrongs, and make us believe that being gay, or living spontaneously is a bad thing. That is why we create this alter ego or have these deep longings to do what is not conventional. Our alter ego is a way of expressing our “dark side” without being judged from others. I’ve also been thinking extensively about the phrase “dark side”. What did Robert Greene intend from this? At first you delve into star wars, the dark side is an ancient force that harbors immense power but only attracts the most devious villains. After pondering this phrase a little more I began to think did Greene intend to use “the dark side” as a way of describing a part of your personality that was not illuminated to the outside world? I came to the conclusion that how this phrase is taken depends on what kind of person you are. If you believe the dark side to be a horrid aspect of a personality that you have to deal with, you most likely took this passage in a very cynical way. On the other hand if you believe the dark side to not necessarily to be something bad, but just an aspect of a personality someone keeps hidden you are probably a very optimistic person. Do I have a dark side? Well the answer is an obvious yes; everyone has traits and characteristics they keep hidden. But I do not yet know what these traits are, as I grow older I realize aspects of my personality that I have had a lifetime but never noticed. Until I truly figure out who I am cannot truthfully answer this question, but everyday brings me on step closer to reaching this goal.
ReplyDeleteDylan -"To consider if I have a dark side or not, I must first try to explain my definition of a “dark side,” which is slightly different than what Greene explained in his opinion. "
ReplyDeleteI like that you said YOUR definition because after reading most of the blogs I realized that we all consider the dark side a little bit differently which results in a completed different reception of Greene's piece. It also proves Greene wrong that we can't be categorized into the things he stated, and that it all depends on our perspective.
alexnikolinos -
This long example brings me back to my point that; at a certain age we stop caring what others think. I think when it comes to what others think about our “dark side” we stop caring middle age. For example, after you get married and have a few kids, you have bigger problems then worrying about what others think of you.
Though that can be true I must disagree and say that it all depends on the cultures. There are cultures that ALL the parents think about is what other will think of their family or their parents. You see some parents like to have their family seem perfect and the image must look good. I know some people and relatives that are like that, and a lot of people rejected my family because we simply don't care about what others have to say as long as we are living the right way and doing the right thing. My dad had a son and four daughters, surprisingly people looked at him oddly when he says how much he loves us and wouldn't want to have had it any other way. He actually told me that some old fashioned people came to him in pity or mourning that he had ANOTHER girl... and when he gets mad and says that it's a blessing girl or boy, they thought he was weird. Yet my dad never cared even though his surrounding were telling him otherwise, that if he had more sons they would have been more helpful? Thing is my dad will get red in the face and bring me to his old auto-shop or where his friends are and show me off like I was a prize, that even the last child was a girl and she can be as good or better then any boy.
Kaitlin:
ReplyDeleteWhen I first started reading your post, I was wondering where exactly you were going with it, but once I got about halfway through the first paragraph, it all made sense. I love how you made a connection between something we hear almost all of the time and Green's assertion regarding society's admiration of villains.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteLucas:
ReplyDelete"My biggest complaint about this article was his bold and unwarranted statement that said, “the very thing we protest against is most often exactly what we want”. In some situations, this may be true. However, in the VAST majority of cases, it is utter nonsense."
Although I found the "The Dark Side" thought-provoking and I agreed with the majority of Green's ideas, I must say that reading the bit about people protesting against exactly what they want bothered me. I feel like such an assertion can only be made with the avoidance of sweeping generalizations. As I do believe that there certainly are homophobes scared of their own sexual desires and people who smile 24/7 even though they are secretly filled with some misdirected anger (think reaction formation), I think Green was certainly warranted in his inclusion of the idea, but not in his use of such a gross overgeneralization.
Brynne: Yes, I'd have to say you are wrong. I know myself very, very well: inside and out. I am not in denial. Everyone is different. Because my conclusion does not agree with yours does not make me naive or misunderstanding. I merely believe differently.
ReplyDeleteDeanna: I love how you don't hold back your emotion in your writing! I agreed with a few of your points, like about how society does not give everyone a chance to expose their personality. Like with your boyfriend / friends eaxmple. A friend would never know how romantic she may be, whereas the boyfriend would. I never would have thought to point that out though, kudos :)
ReplyDeleteBrittNAY: I agree with your blog almost one hundred percent. "The student who always volunteers to help anyone is not necessarily hiding greed and evil behind their smile. Likely enough they probably just like helping." This is very true, just look at me! While some people may help otehrs just to make themselves look good, not all do, and so as you said, Greene is not correct in all of his assertions.
Jon W: "On the other hand if you believe the dark side to not necessarily to be something bad, but just an aspect of a personality someone keeps hidden you are probably a very optimistic person." I can agree with this, along with basically everything else you wrote. I also loved your ending, and I think a lot of us can relate to that.
When I read “The Dark Side” I did so with an open mind. I felt that he made a few valid points, such as “Beneath this social side lies a lot of insecurities, weaknesses. As a child, we see that letting people glimpse these weaknesses can only hurt us or raise doubts.” While I only slightly agree with it, I feel as though for a lot of people, this is the case. This one: “Another person is very correct, politically--they eat the right things, they support all of the right causes, they drive a Prius. But behind this is a powerful desire to do the opposite, to let go, to experience some chaos.” Is also true, however, I feel as though he talks more in extremes than anything. This last one I agree fully with: “When you see people, and you only focus on the bright, illuminated side they present to the world as their true character, you misread the situation.” Many times I have befriended someone and found out later who they really were. I thought they were one person, when in reality, they were completely different.
ReplyDeleteWhen it comes to doing the wrong thing, well, we have all done it, and on more than one occasion, it was done intentionally. But that does not make us evil; just human. I‘ll admit that I have done a few wrong things myself, but nothing in any way serious or extreme. Nothing wrong enough to harm anyone or anything, but still, the wrong thing. Deep down inside, we all feel that doing the wrong thing can be fun, adventurous, adrenaline-inducing. As humans, we need that. That’s why we desire it. But calling someone out on it does not necessarily prove to be attraction to them. For example, pimps, hustlers, thugs, straight-up G’s; there is no attraction to them at all from me. They are not “genuine” in my opinion (no, that is not what the G stands for :) ), but more fake than the rest of us. They do not know what they really want, and so they try to take some of everything, even by force if they feel they have to.
It is commonly said that women fall for the bad boys, the bad asses. Personally, I can agree with this, but once again, to an extent. The reason why girls love bad ass guys and guys love bad ass girls, at least, in my opinion, is because of the kind of attitude they carry with themselves. Confidence and spontaneity are two traits that I happen to love in a guy, and I think that is why I’m “attracted” (in a simple, innocent, oh-i-like-him kind of way) to bad asses. But someone who constantly does bad things would not hold my attention for a second. When it is said that we like bad boys, we actually just like good with a splash of bad.
Like what looks like most of the AP Langers, I do not fully agree with Greene. He does seem to stereotype a lot, and also, he seems, in my opinion, to lean toward the extreme. In my opinion, someone’s “Dark side” is just the negative characteristics that may or may not lay hidden. I am very optimistic. But when I am hella tired and stressed, watch out. I tend to snap people’s heads off (but mostly just my sister’s). Of course I have one, just like you, and you, and you too. No one can be completely good; we all have negative traits and flaws. “Dark” is just a really bad word for it.
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